Talk:Barcids

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Barcelona from "Barca"

Never heard of it. It's not mentioned in the wiki article on Barcelona, or in Britannica's article about Barcelona. Suspect it's "OR" (hardly deserves even that description).--91.148.159.4 22:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Go to Google type: Barcelona founder; an article will appear from Advent, an Catholic encyclopedia. It clearly says that Hasdrubal founded that city. Tried to copy the link but somehow it doesn't work. Flamarande 17:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Britannica says: "According to tradition Barcelona was founded by either the Phoenicians or the Carthaginians, who had trading posts along the Catalonian coast. It is no longer thought, however, that the city owes its name to the family of the Carthaginian leader Hamilcar Barca." [1] Apparently, the Catholic Encyclopedia is outdated in this respect. --91.148.159.4 13:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hm, the Britannica doesn't seem to give an alternative or an explanation for that name. The Wiki-article gives a reasonable explanation (somehow you ovelooked the 'history chapter'). Still, might I suggest that you become a little more cautious with an acusation of OR "Suspect it's "OR" (hardly deserves even that description)"? Someone might take offense. Flamarande 21:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The wiki article on Barcelona treats it as a legend, not as a fact. I have come to think that one just can't get enough paranoic about OR on wiki. Phoenician heritage freaks, Hurrian heritage freaks, Sumerian heritage freaks, Atlantis heritage freaks are everywhere. --91.148.159.4 22:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Members of the Barcid family

Names are given here for two of Hamilcar's daughters (Salambua and Sapanibal). Is there any ancient source in which these names appear? Polybius does not mention either name. Furthermore, as Gregory Daly points out in Cannae: The Experience of Battle in the Second Punic War, Polybius only says that Hamilcar betrothed his daughter to Naravas (identified only as a Numidian of "high rank", not specifically as a prince); there is no evidence that the marriage actually took place. Regarding the supposed third daughter, as far as I know, the only evidence that Hamilcar had a daughter who was married to the suffete Bomilcar is Appian's reference to Hanno as Hannibal's nephew. Polybius identifies Hanno as the son of Bomilcar, but not as a relative of Hannibal. Appian is not considered particularly reliable (see Lazenby and Daly's comments on Appian's account of Cannae); in an endnote concerning the identification of Hanno and other officers of Hannibal at Cannae, Daly quotes B.D. Hoyos as saying that "Appian's sole word on this sort of item must be treated with caution." So at best we can say Hanno may have been Hannibal's nephew and Hamilcar's grandson. Evsxrk (talk) 09:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I added these two names after finding them (through Google). I can't find the book now but please take a look at this (go to page 9). You seem to have stumbled upon something. All the names of the three daughters seem to be unknown and Salambua seems to be an invention of Gustave Flaubert. Improved the article accordingly but IMHO we have to mention 'Salambua' (extremely popular). If we simply delete the two names without any explanation (inside the article) a honest user will re-add them sooner or later.

The same book clearly states that Hanno was the son of Bomilcar married to Hamilcar's eldest daughter (therefore a grandson of Hamilcar and nephew of Hannibal). Flamarande (talk) 17:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Salambua/Salammbo should be mentioned, though as a fictional character. I haven't read Lancel's Hannibal (though I have a copy of his book Carthage), so hadn't been aware of his identification of the three unnamed daughters of Hamilcar. However, with all due respect to Lancel, who is a reputable historian, I still have doubts about some of his details. Ultimately he, like everyone else, has to base his information on ancient sources, and as I said previously, it seems the only ancient source connecting the Hanno who fought under Hannibal at Cannae to the Barcid family is Appian's reference to him as Hannibal's nephew, which some question (Daly simply concludes that Hanno "may have been Hannibal's nephew"). Also, how can he be sure of the birth order of Hamilcar's daughters? If the "Hanno the son of Bomilcar the Suffete" mentioned by Polybius was really Hannibal's nephew, then Bomilcar's wife must have been the oldest daughter, but the daughter who was engaged to Naravas could have been older than Hasdrubal's wife. Hasdrubal's wife could even have been the same daughter as the one engaged to Naravas if the marriage never took place or if Naravas died soon afterwards.

There are in fact several other members of the Barcid family mentioned in ancient sources, though only in passing. For instance, Livy states that the Numidian king Oezacles had been married to "a noble Carthaginian, daughter of Hannibal's sister" (Livy 29.29). Also, when the Carthaginian admiral Hasdrubal the Bald was defeated and captured in Sardinia in 215 BCE, one of the other Carthaginian captives was someone named Mago, "a member of the family of Barca and closely related to Hannibal" (Livy 23.41). Finally, according to Cornelius Nepos (see http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/nepos.htm), Hamilcar Barca was the son of another Hannibal. I don't know how reliable that latter piece of information is, but it might be worth including if suitably qualified, e.g. "Hannibal (dates unknown), identified by the Roman historian Cornelius Nepos as the father of Hamilcar Barca. Nothing else is known of this Hannibal, who should not be confused with his famous grandson of the same name." Evsxrk (talk) 16:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying earlier but I'm a bit busy and my net provider is behaving a bit strangely. Your information is valuable and the issues you raised are quite interesting.

I hope that my changes have been for the better and that you largely agree with them. 'Salambo' has been explained, and Sapanibal has been removed (if we only could discover from where this name comes from).

I don't advise you to remove Hanno. However we can and should explain this issue also. More less something like this: "Of the ancient sources, only Appian identifies Hanno as son of Bomilcar and his wife, and some modern historians are unsure with this identification" . However you must give the precise passage(s) of Appian (book, paragraph, and sentences) and the same with Daly (in which book did he write it, what paragraph, and what page-number).

I have found [this], but there are surely more.

I agree with the issue of the birth orders (we do know when the boys were born and their order). Where and when the girls fit in is probably unknown (we do not know even their names). However I'm unsure how we could change it. Flamarande (talk) 17:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The reference you provide the link to (Appian, Hannibalic War, 20) is, I believe, the only place where Appian mentions this Hanno, and the only place where he is called Hannibal's nephew. He doesn't say anywhere that he is the son of Bomilcar. That identification comes from Polybius ([3.42.6]) where he says Hanno led the troops that ambushed the Celts at the Rhone. He mentions him once more (assuming it is the same Hanno) at Cannae (3.114), but does not say he is related to Hannibal. So the existence of the daughter we are discussing was deduced based on three assumptions: 1. Polybius is correct in saying Hanno was the son of the suffete Bomilcar 2. The Hanno who led the troops at the Rhone is the same one who led the Cathaginian right at Cannae 3. Appian is correct in saying that the Hanno who led part of the Carthaginan army at Cannae (though he says the left, not the right) was Hannibal's nephew. Only if all three of those assumptions is true is there a reason to conclude Hamilcar had such a daughter. I agree that Hanno and his supposed mother should be left in, but I'm not sure exactly how the entry should be edited to account for the uncertainty (it's a little bit complicated). I'll give it some more thought and see if I can come up with something.

As for the birth order problem, perhaps we could simply identify the daughters by something like "A daughter of Hamilcar (name unknown) who was married to Hasdrubal the Fair..."; "A second daughter of Hamilcar (name unknown) who was betrothed to Naravas, a Numidian chieftain..." and so forth. If I can think of a good way to edit the entry on the (supposed) mother of Hanno, then I'll change the other two accordingly, unless you have another suggestion. Evsxrk (talk) 17:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Hasdrubal_the_Boetharch#Life says HtB was a grandson. --- Ktsquare (talk) 03:54, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

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