Talk:Belarusian Americans

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Belarusian American qualifications

To be a Belarusian American or any fooian American, one must be an American citizen. This is what it means to be an 'American'. Everyone else in the US are visitors, green-card holders, expatriates, etc.--all of which is fine, but they are not 'Americans'. There is nothing to discuss here other than one editor who does not accept this basic fact and keeps adding non-Americans to this article. Hmains (talk) 22:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

First of all, where does it say that citizenship is a must for the collage? From the context of the article it seems it's about Belarusians in the US, not always citizens.

Second, Olga Korbut is naturalized, and is notable in her training American gymnasts.

Third, who said Johansson even sees herself as a Belarusian American? She has Jewish ancestors coming from the area which is today Belarus, but at the time those areas were not Belarus but Russia, and she never spoke about any connection she had to Belarus. In fact, she always said her ancestors came from Russia in interviews, which shows she doesn't even use the term Belarus because she doesn't think of her ancestors as coming from Belarus. She doesn't see herself as Belarusian, so it's really silly to try and "push" her into the collage. 94.13.108.100 (talk) 10:07, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

• I am still waiting to see references from WP-acceptable reliable sources saying that Americans include non-citizens of the United States who are allowed to live, in the US. The WP bio article on Olga Korbut, the person in question, does not indicate she is an American and so she is not. Americans don't have to be allowed to live in the US; as citizens, they have the right to live there. And this is true of any country; the US is not special here. Hmains (talk) 03:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Further a Olga Korbut image was first added to this article by User:Danton's Jacobin, a blocked user. Contributions from blocked users can be deleted at any time and often are. Hmains (talk) 03:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Deleted, not replaced by a random character like Scarlett Johansson. Olga Korbut is an American citizen, so she is actually more qualified then Scarlett Johansson, who is not even Belarusian. She never defined herself as one, she has very little roots there and even the one she had probably considered themselves Polish Jews or Russian Jews because Jews in the area never identified as Ruthenian/Belarusian Jews until the Belarusian SSR was formed. 94.7.210.153 (talk) 09:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The article was briefly protected. Don't restore Scarlett Johansson or Olga Korbut to the article without considering what was said here, and providing the RS I noted is needed.--Elvey (talk) 08:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Scarlett Johansson can't be in the collage because she never called herself Belarusian, and she probably doesn't see her as such, because her ancestorss who came from that region came when there was no Belarus yet and they probably never heard of the name Belarus. Also, they weren't of Belarusian ethnicity, so any connection to the modern definition of Belarus or Belarusian falls out.

Olga Korbut in my opinion should be in the collage, but as suggested I don't put her in in order to wait for a discussion.

Let's suggest who is good enough to fill this spot! Barys Kit would be the obvious pick, but we don't have a picture of him on the English Wikipdia. It has to be someone either of Belarusian ethnicity, or someone who isn't necessarily of Belarusian ethnicity but came from Belarus proper (Belarusian SSR, modern Belarus). 90.214.121.50 (talk) 20:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

• Nothing has changed since this discussion above. You insisted in keeping a non-American in this article and when you could not get that to succeed, then went hunting to put another person here, with no excuse to have removed Johansson in the first place other than your self-made criteria. Hmains (talk) 03:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
• I see no justification forthcoming as to why Johansson should not be in this article. Where is your reasoning? Hmains (talk) 03:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I explained why Johansson is not a Belarusian American, it's your problem you have reading difficulties (no other explanation why you didn't even try to comment on what I said or even try to explain what makes Johansson Belarusian American).

Johansson was not in the collage originally, Korbut was, you are the one who tried pushing her in without discussing. What is your reasoning? Mind one is on top of what you wrote. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 22:05, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

• A fooian American (including Ukrainian American) is someone who themselves came to the US and became American citizens or their ancestors did. This definition is clear and applies universally not only to the US but also to other countries. Non-Americans will be removed with no question. Hmains (talk) 03:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

First of all, even if someone should be removed, it doesn't mean Johansson will go in. In fact, she definitely won't because she's not a Belarusian American. Second, who exactly in the collage is not an American citizen? Korbut goes back because she's naturalized, you obviously don't want to reach a consensus and are not replying arguments. Second, only a total joke like you will say Gretzky is not American: [1]. Learn your facts before starting edit warring. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 12:59, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

And here is a link about Olga Korbut being American: [2] [3] and a different link mentioning it [4]. I bet you will ignore those stuff and continue edit warring, because that's all you seem to be capable of. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 13:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

We all must go by what the documented WP articles say, which you choose to ignore, among other things. The statement that Olga is an American citizen was added to her article on Dec 27, 2013 after all this started. The statement is from a non-English source (the same as you reference) so there is no way to verify whether it is a reliable source or just a blog or tabloid. Your insults are no help to a conversion and are duly ignored by me and reported to administrators for action. 03:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

As I last checked, English Wikipedia allows (and in fact, heavily relies on, in some areas) non-English sources. The article is an interview with Olga Korbut, where she clearly states she has American citizenship. It doesn't get more reliable! 90.216.193.145 (talk) 18:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Whether English or not, WP requires what are called reliable sources, not just any source; see WP:VERIFY for this requirement. Any editor can challenge and remove text that is not based on a reliable source. It is up to you to prove this foreign source meets the stated criteria. Then there is the Wayne Gretzky image. His article in WP says he is Canadian and says nothing about his ever being an American. You need to remove him from this American article. Hmains (talk) 00:55, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

How can an interview with the person be not reliable? It's an interview with Olga Korbut where she mentions she has American citizenship, you didn't point out yet what exactly in unreliable about that source?

Why exactly do we need to remove Gretzky, if he is an American citizen? I gave you a link for that to and it looks like you are bluffing. Here is another one if you like: [5]. It's not hard to find. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.193.145 (talk) 08:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

• Read, understand, and follow WP:VERIFY. Hmains (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

And...? I did, and it seems to me you are the one who needs to have a read. Korbut said she has American citizenship in an interview, Gretsky is an American citizen by naturalization and I gave two sources about it, there is no problem with the links. You haven't pointed out the problems yourself! What exactly are you not pleased about? Your only argument so far was Korbut interview being in Russian. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Wayne Gretzky should be removed because he is CANADIAN. He is a Canadian national icon - few people probably realize he did get U.S. citizenship. I'm not surprised he did, because a lot of professionals who work in the US (and make tons of money and want to buy businesses etc) do so because of the inconveniences of being on a work visa/green card, and since he was married to an American it didn't take him too long to qualify. However, he never renounced his Canadian citizenship nor stated he identifies himself as an American. Even on his own Wiki it says he is a Canadian in the first sentence - not Canadian-American or Canadian with dual US citizenship. Go try to change it to include label him as an American and see how long before that is reverted and people laugh silly. I updated Korbut's bio from a better source (LA Times) and specifically stated she became a U.S. citizen in 2000. Belarus does not allow for dual citizenship. She is a U.S. citizen only. Wikimandia (talk) 08:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I find it hilarious that some random people no one ever heard of (like Wikimandia here) think they can decide who they are regarding others.

Gretsky many years ago, out of his own will, got American citizenship. Does it mean he is no longer Canadian? No, because he kept the Canadian citizenship, but now that he has American citizenship (after living for many years in America) you can certainly call him an American to). One does not have to pick only one, you are allowed to be two.

It is even more funny to see you trying to "explain" why he took the citizenship. How do you know why he got it? I know it hurts you as a Canadian to see a Canadian also being regarded as an American, but it really is non of your business.

If Gretzky chose to be American (as well as Canadian), who do you think you are to challenge it? He spend enough years in America and qualifies for the citizenship, and it has nothing to do with you. You are not the one to decide on who qualifies as what. American Citizen living in the US=American. Yes, he is Canadian to, a Canadian icon, definitely, so...? He is not anyone's property. His daughter wants nothing to do with Canada: [6]. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

This collage is bodgy. Surely there are better representatives than Gretzky? He is Canadian and lives in Canada. Also Tadeusz Kościuszko appears to be claimed as Belarusian by Belarusian nationalists, but there is nothing to suggest he was anything but Polish-Lithuanian or identified as Belarusian. Alec Station (talk) 12:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Wayne Gretzky

An IP editor insists that Wayne Gretzky be included in this article, saying he has links showing this person is an American citizen. Nothing in the Wayne Gretzky article shows this to be the case: the sourced article shows he is a Canadian living in Canada. So Gretzky must not be in this article Hmains (talk) 22:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Why are you starting a new discussion, if there is a discussion on top? Again, here is a link indicating Gretzky is an Amerian citizen: [7]. Therefore, Gretzky must be in the article. He's an American citizen, it's referenced, based on what are you saying he is not American? Do you think you have more authority to decide who is American than the American immigration office? 90.221.158.101 (talk) 08:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Scarlett Johansson

An IP editor insists that Scarlett Johansson not be included in this article saying she is not Belarusian. The Scarlett Johansson shows this is not true: the sourced article shows she is an American and her ancestors came from Minsk in what is now Belorussia. According to the WP rules for ancestry, this means she is a Belarusian American. So Johansson can be in this article. Hmains (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Her ancestors came from Minsk when Belarus didn't exist yet, and they were Jewish, which means they saw themselves either as Russian Jews or Polish Jews, since that's between who Belarus was split at the time. Calling her Belarusian is like calling Sholem Aleichem Ukrainian, sounds ridiculous, right? My point exactly. She herself never referred to herself as Belarusian and never even mentioned it (which makes sense, because she had only one great-grandparent from Belarus, and that great-grandparent probably didn't even "know" they were "Belarusian"). You can't add people in the collage who never actually saw themselves as Belarusians in any way and whose ancestors never saw themselves this way. It makes much more sense to add Lisa Kudrow to the article because at least she has a grandparent who lived in the Belarusian SSR (and still I can bet they haven't seen themselves as Belarusian but as Soviet Jews, but at least they lived on a territory that was recognized as Belarus). 90.221.158.101 (talk) 08:35, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Both Scarlett Johansson and Lisa Kudrow should be removed from the list IMO. They don't identify themselves as Belarussians, they don't speak any of the languages spoken there. There is nothing in their image that associates them with Belarus in any way. There is just no need to feature people as Belarussians when they are clearly not by any reasonable standard, with all due respect. 24.6.216.114 (talk) 00:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Scarlett Johansson is not Belarusian, and neither is Lisa Kudrow. Both had a great-great-grandfather or whatever that lived in Belarus, which is very little, and they were not even Belarusian but Jewish. At the time Belarus was a part of the Russian empire and Belarusian identity was strong only among the peasants and some of the nationalist intellectuals, I can assure you Jews who lived in Belarus in the 19th century did not see themselves as Belarusian.

Those women themselves never ever referred to themselves as Belarusian or indicated of any connection to Belarusian culture. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

"White Russian Americans" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect White Russian Americans and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 27#White Russian Americans until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Belarusians identified as Russian

@RusHistorian, the source you added [8] - Заблоцкая, М. В. "Идеи «западноруссизма» в политической и культурно-национальной жизни Беларуси в конце XIX — начале XX века" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on December 13, 2013. , is not reliable. Regnum is russian propaganda outlet.

I can't find confirmation for the text you added, The majority of the pre-Revolutionary immigrants from Belarus who were ethnic Belarusians identified as Russian, in another source provided by you - Гронский, А. Д. "Образ Российской империи и белорусского национального движения в новом школьном учебнике по истории Белоруссии". Archived from the original on April 27, 2014.

I'm undoing your contributions. Please provide quotes from sources confirming your additions before re-adding them. Thanks! Manyareasexpert (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

"Regnum is russian propaganda outlet." is an opinion.

You are re-writing history to fit your nationalist narratives. The majority of Russian Americans came from what is now Ukraine and Belarus, which flies in the face of you narratives. Have fun with your Ukrainianist crusade. You will not undo the truth. RusHistorian (talk) 06:47, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The fact that you are erasing sources speaks volumes.

This is vandalism. These facts don't agree with your ideology. RusHistorian (talk) 07:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)