Talk:Bertis Downs IV

Notability?

OK, so he knows REM, great. What is the claim for this guy's notability per guidelines in WP:BIO? -MrFizyx 20:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

He's R.E.M.'s lawyer, often considered the fifth member of the band when there were four of them. He's mentioned in any books about them, in tons of articles, etc. It's not even a question. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Asking questions can lead to better articles and should not be discouraged. If it can be avoided I'd rather work this out here than waste time in an AfD with people who don't care about the subject. Here are some concerns:

1. The article should assert something that meets criteria in WP:BIO. 279 unique hits in a google test suggests some notability, but doesn't make or break the case. I think he probably fails the professor test (as he is an adjunct and probably not a major influence in entertainment law).
2. I realize that there is some precident set by articles on the fifth Beatle, Bill Ham, and Jim Guercio, but in those cases we are talking about people that influenced the sound and/or style of the band (Ham and Guercio even with songwriting creds). How has Downs done this? If he is just one college buddy in a whole list of the band managers what makes him encyclopedic?

-MrFizyx 21:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

He's the manager of R.E.M., their legal representation, and has been the subject of many parts of books and articles because of it. The google test is not widely accepted, the proftest doesn't apply, and we have no binding precedents here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

He's an adjunct prof. because of his notability in the entertainment law field (i.e. the professorship resulted from his notability, and that's why he is an adjunct - still has a day job). Also from WP:BIO here's four that are applicable IMHO:

• the person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field
• persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events
• the person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person
• widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers

--Roswell native 01:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, then perhaps you could highlight some of these things in the article and cite "multiple non-trivial published works..." because the case you are making above has yet to be established here. Instead, he states that he became REM's lawyer without "any particular expertise." And although I'm glad that "Members of the public encountering Bertis are generally particularly impressed with his courtesy and patience," I'm not sure how you'd verify that. -MrFizyx 02:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Never claimed the article accurately reflected his notability - some definite clean-up is in order. My point was that Bertis is notable (by multiple standards in [WP:BIO]]). This Londonist article states that he is "occasionally known as the fourth member of the band R.E.M." Also as for lack of "any particular experience" I believe that referred to that fact that he had no experience with respect to entertainment law when he started working with them in the early '80s. From this article, Bertis states that " I also teach seminars and give guest lectures to lawyers on entertainment law at universities around the country" - w.r.t. widely recognized entertainment personalities. From the same article Bertis states "I did their early contracts and helped them realize there was a business aspect as well as an artistic aspect to music. Now they are the board of directors and I run the company. They finally decided this band could be a career. But, at that time, rock bands lasted about as long as NFL running backs. Now they're putting out their 14th record." That's a widely recognized contribution to me. Downs also serves on the People For the American Way Foundation Board of Directors. From his UGA Law School profile: "Downs is past chair of the Music and Personal Appearance Division of the American Bar Association Forum Committee on the Entertainment and Sports Industries and is a frequent panelist at the Practicing Law Institute program 'Counseling Clients in the Entertainment Industry.'" In addition, he is listed in the credits on all their albums as anything from advisor to keyboarist and track performer. He was one of key organizers of the Vote for Change tour according to this article.

OK, so obviously he meets wikipedia's standards then. Perhaps someone interested in this topic could do a rewrite to assert this? -MrFizyx 21:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's on my ever-growing list. I have a couple books we can use, at the very least. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Downs was probably the reason why the band did not get eaten alive by the industry in the early stages. Reference: music industry; new bands; small labels. R.E.M. has been noted for the way they conducted their business and their art. Reference: passim. Bertis most likely paved the way for them here. Reference: would probably have to be personal knowledge from someone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asjordan (talk • contribs)

Year of birth

His date of birth is July 13. Still looking for his year of birth. - Dudesleeper · Talk 19:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A messageboard post will have to do for now. It's 1956. - Dudesleeper · Talk 19:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

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