Talk:Bohemian crown jewels/Archive 1

Archive 1

Technical move: to Czech Crown Jewels

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

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Bohemian Crown Jewels → Czech Crown Jewels – As discoused above, i am proposing returning the article back to Czech Crown Jewels.
Links:
Crown Jewels,
Czech Crown Jewels at the Prague Castle Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

• No need for WP:RM. Have submitted WP:RM/TR per WP:BRD. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:49, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Ouch, what is TR and WP:BRD? Sorry for my ignorance:-) But i see that in your reference you recently added is clearly stated "THE CZECH CROWN JEWELS" (Lonely Planet). Jirka.h23 (talk) 08:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have bluelinked the alphabetti. No need to apologize. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move: to Bohemian Crown Jewels

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Czech Crown Jewels → Bohemian Crown Jewels – I apologize for the apparent furor I caused above. I believe this page belongs at Bohemian Crown Jewels. To start with, the page began at that title, and was moved without any rationale given. More importantly, though, is that there simply are no "Czech Crown Jewels". There has never been a monarchy entitled "Kingdom of Czechia" or something similar. There was only the Kingdom of Bohemia. This Kingdom forged these jewels, and used them in coronations. Rightfully, then, they are the Bohemian Crown Jewels. The Czecho-Slovak Republic and the Czech Republic are not monarchies. They do not have "crown jewels", because they have no one to crown. Furthermore, many (if not most) of the Kings of Bohemia were not even ethnic Czechs (as Czech is more of an ethnic term than Bohemian, which is more inclusive, i.e. German Bohemians). It simply does not make sense to place this article under its current title. Unless one changes the title of the monarchy to "Kingdom of Czechia" there can be no "Czech Crown Jewels". Please also see the discussion above. RGloucester (talk) 19:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support per nom also WP:BRD speedy revert, since the last move was performed as a speedy bypassing discussion, it should be reverted, as imrproper procedure. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

65.92.180.137, no the other way around - please check the time-stamps and page history, and then WP:RM:

If the page has recently been moved without discussion, you may revert the move and initiate a discussion on the talk page of the article. (See also: Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle.) If you are unable to revert, request it below.

The page has been stable since 20 April 2008-1 March 2013‎ Czech Crown Jewels. If a move is desired (as this) it should start from the stable page title (as this). In ictu oculi (talk) 01:47, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I've corrected my stance. I still agree with the nom though, these are the Crown Jewels of the Kingdom of Bohemia. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 02:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Tentative/Weak support - per WP:COMMONNAME: "Czech crown jewels" 120x "Bohemian crown jewels" 613x. The reason the support is weak is that GB-hit counting isn't the only title criteria. Both names are used and therefore valid, and the additional ethnic/political reasoning introduced into the nom could be seen differently. Will wait to hear what others say. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:01, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Czech Crown Jewels may be "valid" in the minds of some with a nationalist agenda (which is where it originates), and even in many who do not, but it is not the most descriptive. It implies there was a Czech monarchy. There was never a Czech monarchy. The monarchy is called "Bohemian" for a variety of reasons. Traditionally, it is because Čechy was substituted for the Latin-based Bohemia. But another key distinction is that Bohemia was not a nation-state: it was multi-ethnic, and most of its kings were not even Czech. Czech, as a word, is used in a purely ethnic sense. Bohemian, on the other hand, has always referred to Germans and Czechs and Jews living alongside each other in the lands of the Bohemian Crown. That is why there were "German Bohemians" but no "German Czechoslovaks", or "German Czechs". This is complicated, and the whole deal with demonyms for the Czech lands is a mess. Despite this, calling these jewels Czech is a good way to lead to misinformation. RGloucester (talk) 03:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move: → Czech Crown Jewels

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by requester. RGloucester (talk) 13:24, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

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Bohemian Crown Jewels → Czech Crown Jewels – Sorry, i was not here for a week. As discoused above, i am proposing returning the article back to Czech Crown Jewels. Again, Bohemia is just an equivalent for Čechy. I did not ever hear of "Bohemian Crown Jewels".
Links:
Crown Jewels,
Czech Crown Jewels at the Prague Castle Jirka.h23 (talk) 04:40, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

• Request that this move be closed - The debate was open for a week, and it just closed today. It is too soon for another move. Please close this debate. RGloucester (talk) 04:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

With all the respect to your opinion, i am sure you cant prove they are called "Bohemian Crown Jewels". We cant just move articles as we want it to be named. So when is proper time for you, next week is ok? Jirka.h23 (talk) 05:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

With the utmost respect to you, as I love the Czech people, I went through the proper procedure. WP:BRD occurred. There was a requested move on my part. The debate was open for a week. It was closed as moving to "Bohemian Crown Jewels". Less than a day after that move was closed, you then request a move back to where it just came from. That seems a bit queer, no? And yes, I can prove that they are called the "Bohemian Crown Jewels". First of all, if Bohemia is the English equivalent of Čechy, which it is, then why, on the English wikipedia, would we call it otherwise? Also, for English-speakers, Czech (český) does not mean someone from Bohemia proper. It only means someone from the Czech lands (Česko). I understand that in Czech, český means both Bohemian and Czech. That’s not the way it works in English. They have two separate and distinct meanings, Czech and Bohemian. Anyway, I’ve stated all my arguments above. If you don’t believe me, take a look at In ictu oculi’s Google books search above, which show many more hits for "Bohemian Crown Jewels" than Czech Crown Jewels. I’m not inventing stuff out of thin air, here. Again, with the utmost respect. RGloucester (talk) 05:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

• Request that this move be closed - I'm afraid I have to agree. Not because I don't sympathize Jirka.h23 but it was open for 7 days, experienced editors at WP Czech Republic could have seen it on Article Alerts, and yet no one commented. But more to the point its not going to help you either to have another RM without an argument to contradict the majority of English sources.

On the southern side of the chapel a small door – locked with seven locks – hides a staircase leading to the Coronation Chamber above the Golden Gate, where the Bohemian crown jewels are kept (you can see replicas in the Story of Prague ...) Lonely Planet Prague

However majority sources is not the only argument, if you have another, different argument then it a RM would be okay, but right now saying the same thing will have the same result. It doesn't help you. Honestly, I would go away and consider for a month. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I think its not the majority, but all sources call it Czech, all i want is RGloucester’s trustworthy source, all he is saying is because it was Kingdom of Bohemia, then everything from it must be named Bohemian, which i dont see as an credible argument. What i am affraid is that Czech crown jewels is renowned name, but nobody will know where Bohemian Crown Jewels emerged from nothing, such name simply can’t be renamed because somebody want to. But no problem, will wait for a month. Jirka.h23 (talk) 08:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

My "trustworthy source" is having worked with the history of the Czech lands for a very long time. I understand that the Kingdom is called "Bohemian" in English, but that, in Czech, there is only one word for both Bohemian and Czech (český). In English, Czech never refers to Čechy, from which the Kingdom derives its name. It always refers to Česko (modern Czech state). In that case, the Jewels cannot be Czech. They can only be Bohemian. The monarchy was not Czech. If you can somehow figure out a way to prove that the monarchy should be called Kingdom of Čechy (untranslated, i.e. deleting the word "Bohemian" from English) or Kingdom of Česko, then the jewels would be Czech. But that’s not possible. RGloucester (talk) 13:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.