Talk:Bonnie Blue flag

South Carolina

Flag of South Carolina

Bonnie Blue Flag

File:FortMoultrieFlag.jpg

Fort Moultrie Flag

shouldn't someone mention the flag's link to South Carolina? i may be misinformed, but i do know that although the song and the fame that followed it began when Mississippi seceded from the Union, the flag and the symbolism itself was heavily tied to the state of South Carolina.

the Bonnie Blue Flag itself bears the same color as the state flag of SC, which was the same color all the way back to pre-1776. originally, the SC flag bore the crecent symbol and the word "LIBERTY" underneath it. when SC became the first state to secede from the union, the Bonnie Blue was the most popular symbol of secession, because the star represented the independant state of SC. officially, the lone palmetto was added to the flag to signify this.

Although I'm sure the Bonnie Blue would have been popular in SC during the war, it bears no real historical influence on the state flag. The palmetto was added to the flag after the revolution to commemorate the tree's contribution to a major South Carolinian victory at Fort Moultry. There were several other symbols of secession in SC that were more popular than the Bonnie Blue. Gadsdon's Flag, which bears a rattlesnake and the words 'don't tread on me' and is now the ensign of the navy, was invented in SC for the revolution and was revived for secession. There were also several variations on the state flag, such as the palmetto in full color, and a red flag with just the crescent, that were popular. Mary Boykin's diary, while certainly not comprehensive, does mention several of these flags, but not the Bonnie Blue. In short, the Bonnie Blue flag and the SC state flag had no influence on one another. 129.252.69.19 21:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

although i have seen the link to the Republic of West Florida before, i'm not sure of its validity as the same flag. being the Bonnie Blue is a very simple flag, it may mean that the flags were simply identical but concieved completely seperately at different times.

-grey ghost 05:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• The "Bonnie Blue Flag" was indeed the Flag of West Florida, as the article says (A little known chapter of history, but true). How it came to be associated with the Civil War, secession, etc. is also explained in the article.--JW1805 (Talk) 18:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I've made mention of the flag's predominate meaning today regarding federalism and the principle's commonly referred to as 'state's rights'.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.41.112.118 (talk) at 21:41, 5 July 2006

Acutally, to my knowlage, the palmetto was not added to the flag until SC succeeded from the union, the palmetto thereby representing the independence of the state. Until that time, it was the "Moultrie" type flag with the crecent and "LIBERTY" on it. The red variation of the state flag was flown by the Citadel troops. -grey ghost 02:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Verse vs. Refrain

The article previously said, "One verse is:" then goes on to cite "Hurrah, hurrah, for Southern Rights hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!" This is not, in fact, a verse, but rather, the refrain. I have made an appropriate change in the text. MrKeith2317 18:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

74 or 90?

This article states that the republic of west florida lasted 74 days, but the West Florida article says it lasted 90 days. How long did it last? Jamie|C 17:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Republic of West Florida says 34... messa confused. -- Hestemand 14:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Dubious

This article describes the lone star flag of the Republic of West Florida (1810), then the national standard of Texas (1836), as "Bonnie Blue" flags. But the first recorded use of the name "Bonnie Blue Flag" is dated 1861. This is a serious problem and calls for a rewrite of the article — unless reliable sources link the name to the Florida and Texas flags. Also, the assertion that the "Bonnie Blue" inspired the California bear flag seems extremely unlikely and demands clear proof. — Rob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 13:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Instead of a discussion, the alerts were reverted (diff) with the comment "way too many flag on confirmed info". But the info is not confirmed, and referring readers to the links does not establish reliable sourcing. Let's discuss this here, please, rather than reverting without discussion. If the article is factual, this should not present any difficulties. I am concerned that it is not factual, and that it may be making a mockery of an important subject. — Rob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 19:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the claim that the flag is often used to reprepresent the southeastern US also needs citations. And by whom? In what context? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignatios2000 (talk • contribs) 02:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Shade of Blue

I have seen Bonnie Blue Flags with both light and dark shades of blue. Which is correct? Emperor001 (talk) 03:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I've seen pictures of the Bonnie Blue Flag that show its background as being an azure blue, not the navy blue shown here. Keraunos (talk) 12:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Settlers

The way the article is currently written is seems to passively imply that the settlers in rebellion were Spanish settlers, when any serious scholarship on the uprising will tell you that the settlers were overwhelmingly Anglo-Celtic, during the American Revolution they were mostly Loyalists but Spain was simply TOO foreign and after the territory went back to Spanish control the Anglo-Floridian settlers wanted to be part of the equally Anglo-American U.S.A. rather than be ruled by a Spanish Catholic monarchy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thesouthernhistorian45 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Which Flag is article about?? Bonnie Blue or Flag of West Florida Republic?

I concur with the posting under "dubious". Simply equating the Lone Star Flag of the West Florida Republic with the Bonnie Blue is inappropriate, and many historians in West Feliciana would take issue with calling the Flag of the Republic of West Florida the "Bonnie Blue." The Bonnie Blue was in fact a later reincarnation of the W.Fla. Lone Star flag. In the context of its reincarnation, the "Bonnie Blue" is an emblem of the southern confederacy. The article introduces the Bonnie Blue as the flag of the W. Fla. rebellion, which occured c. a half century before. The original flag symbolized rebellion (led largely by opportunistic descendants from English colonies) against the Spanish. I would propose a rewrite which would reflect this fact. (I'm new to this, reticent to attempt an edit, and do not have citations.) Furthermore, I have heard some discussion as to whether the reincarnated Bonnie Blue and the original Flag of the West Florida Republic, in fact, were of the same shade of blue. Philatx (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Shorter revision; questions to answer

I have drastically shortened the article, which was largely based on two defunct web links. I found a new reliable source for the first use of the flag at the Mississippi state capitol. Moved information about the song (rather than the flag) to "The Bonnie Blue Flag." Looking at interwiki links, I notice that some wikis combine the two subjects in one article, but the French Wikipedia follows us in having two separate ones, one for the flag and one for the song.

There is no evidence to support the claim, formerly prominent in this article, that the Bonnie Blue Flag was identical with the Flag of the Republic of West Florida or the original Flag of Texas. We might just as well claim that the Flag of Somalia is related. (In fact, the flag of Somalia was actually mentioned in this article, which shows how far it had gone toward becoming an indiscriminate collection of information.)

Here are some questions I would like to see answered for this article:

• Is the Magnolia Flag of Mississippi related to the Bonnie Blue?
• Can we find further dates in the history of the flag? When was it replaced in Mississippi by an official Confederate flag?
• Did military units carry the flag into battle e.g. as a regimental standard?

I'm sure there's plenty more to report. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 02:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

It appears to me, with just a cursory look at some Google Book sources, that there is quite a linkage between the flag of West Florida and the Bonnie Blue Flag.

For instance:

• Cannon, Devereaux D. The Flags of the Confederacy: An Illustrated History. Gretna [Louisiana]: Pelican Pub. Co, 1994.
• Davis, William C. The Rogue Republic: How Would-Be Patriots Waged the Shortest Revolution in American History. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2011.
• Frois, Jeanne, and Larry Pardue. Flags of Louisiana. Gretna, La: Pelican Pub. Co, 1995.
• Griffin, John Chandler. Pictorial History of the Confederacy. Jefferson: Mcfarland, 2008.
• Rollins, Richard. "The Damned Red Flags of the Rebellion": The Confederate Battle Flag at Gettysburg. Redondo Beach, Calif: Rank and File Publications, 1997.

I think we can restore some of the material you deleted, shorten it, and add some of these as sources. We should definitely delete trivial stuff like the Somali flag, etc. TuckerResearch (talk) 04:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the book titles! My concern is that we avoid giving undue weight to local legend. In other words, it would be natural for authors hailing from the terrain of the former West Florida Republic to assert a wide influence for their ancestors' single-star flag, whether or not there is any evidence. So what is the evidence? Has the connection been proved or merely asserted? From what I saw of the books cited, the connection is only asserted.

What would constitute proof? Resemblance is not enough. The spatial overlap of the R.W.F. with the C.S.A. is only circumstantial evidence. We don't even know that many southerners retained any specific memory of the R.W.F. in 1861. If it's documented that the Magnolia Flag was designed to incorporate the West Florida star, that would be very significant. The article Flag of Mississippi has only a brief account.

The Rogue Republic suggests that at least one person involved in the West Florida rebellion was "present" when the Magnolia Flag and the Bonnie Blue were adopted. But no evidence is presented that the R.W.F. flag influenced the C.S.A. flags.

Some text is missing from the Google Books versions of these texts, though, and as you said, it's only a cursory search. Maybe library research will turn up reliable evidence of a connection between the flags. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 04:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it is only asserted, as you say, but they are in proper secondary sources. We should at least put it in there, I don't think it gives any undue weight to legend. There is source after source after source stating the flag of the Republic of West Florida and the Bonnie Blue Flag are one and the same, we just don't know when it started to be called the Bonnie Blue Flag. What are you looking for? A primary source stating, "This Bonnie Blue Flag was the Flag of West Florida" by an eyewitness who lived from 1810 to 1860 and saw both flags? TuckerResearch (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some mention that "some authors have stated" that the two flags are related. But with more research I believe we can do better than that.

Re the books from your cursory search, I notice that even the ones from noted presses like McFarland & Co. do not provide sources for their claim about the two flags. The "fact" is presented either as an interesting tidbit or because it tends to support a broader argument. The more lightweight works simply repeat the story because it's a good story.

You asked what I'm looking for in order to allow a plain assertion as fact that "the flag of the Republic of West Florida and the Bonnie Blue Flag are one and the same." While I'm not so picky as to insist on a narrowly defined primary source, I do affirm (as you also said) that we need more than mere assertion. So far, assertion is all we have. But it's early days yet.

I would be delighted to be able to show in this article that the two flags are identical. To be clear, I am not opposed to the concept of the two flags' shared identity. I am opposed to misleading readers by over-interpreting the evidence.

In the absence of a definitive primary source (which might exist, for all I know), here are other arguments I'd also find persuasive. They are examples of hypotheses that can be tested through research:

1. The Bonnie Blue flag first appeared on the Mississippi capital dome, and (at least some, if not all) state leaders invoked the legacy of the R.W.F. in choosing that flag as a symbol. (We don’t yet know whether they did. A detailed history of Mississippi would probably answer the question.) If this pans out, I'd say the identity of the two flags is a historical fact.

2. We have evidence that Gulf Coast Confederates remembered and thought about the history of the R.W.F. (This is not a given. The R.W.F. may have been all but forgotten by the mid-19th century except by a few antiquarians.) While remembering the R.W.F. in 1860-61 doesn't prove that the Bonnie Blue flag was inspired by it, we may find one or two historians willing to make that specific inference. If so, the identity of the flags is a theory advanced by those historians.

3. A similar inference might be made by a historian of the Magnolia Flag, as I mentioned above.

4. A pre-1860 reference to the flag of the R.W.F. as "bonnie" or "bonny" would be compelling circumstantial evidence of a shared history for the two flags. It would deserve a mention, and readers could then form their own conclusions.

These examples may suggest others. My main complaint against the previous version of the article is that contributors assumed they knew the answer to a research question, then crammed the article with factoids that supported the preferred answer. The preferred answer may even be correct, but this approach is always wrong, in my view. It shows disrespect for readers and invites their mistrust.

So instead, let's just state what we know in plain, brief terms. Right now, what we know is that some authors have asserted that the flag of the Republic of West Florida inspired the Bonnie Blue Flag.

Sorry for the long reply. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 21:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

An anonymous editor re-inserted the West Florida claim in the lead paragraph. I moved it down to its own graf and cited two of the references you found. They struck me as the most relevant and authoritative. What do you think?

The worst of the listed books, I think, is Devereaux Cannon's The Flags of the Confederacy. It begins well by modestly stating only that the R.W.F. flag is the earliest known flag with a "lone star." But then he conflates it with not only the Bonnie Blue but the Lone Star of Texas, on no other grounds than that all three flags flew in "the South." Yeesh. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 23:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

No problem with the long reply. If I can ferret out some better sources, when I have time, I will. I agree, the sources we have are sketchy at best and skimpy on historical connection, but the pure weight of the secondary sources we do have I think insists we at least mention the connection. I think the way it is now is fine. When we have better evidence we can add some more material. I'm glad you junked all the factoids and silly connections (like the whole Somalia bit!) but I was concerned you deleted the connection to West Florida too. There's another book on the Republic of West Florida by a university press that I need to track down. I'll see what they have. (On the Texas connection, there are a few sources who say the Texas flag of 1839 combines the flag of the Republic of West Florida via Samuel Kemper with the flag of the Republic of Fredonia. But I think they're guessing too. But the Kemper connection is interesting.) TuckerResearch (talk) 00:43, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

RWF vs. Confederate Use of the Flag

Upon further review is seems clear that the Bonnie Blue and RWF flag are almost universally considered to be the same: including the Republic of West Florida wikipedia article, including the Laws of the State of Louisiana, and dozens of web references, including one article cited in the Encyclopedia Britanica.

I have therefore returned this fact to the lead paragraph of the article, while leaving in the primary connection of the flag with the civil war. I have also attempted to address the comments here that this association is not 100% postive by using the phrase "widely accepted".

It *is* widely accepted, as evidence by things like the Louisiana state law that says so explicitly.

Hopefully this compromise, along with the additional information and links provided will be acceptable to both sides in this debate.

ZeroXero (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Another way to resolve the question "Is the Republic of West Florida flag the same as the Bonnie Blue would be to look for early examples of the flag and compare them. If such flags exist in museums (from the RWF era) then that would be a positive proof from an art historical point of view, regardless of what written evidence supports it. The fact that the flags A) were identical, B) were used in the same geographic location, C) were used only about 50 years apart and D) are said in tradition to have been the same -- would seem to me to overwhelm the pedantic argument being made here by some.

I think almost any trained art historian would conclude upon finding two flags, from the same area, that were identical, that were produced 50 years apart (within one generation) were "the same flag".

I am not, however, aware of the existence of any such flag in any museum collection, but others may be.

The original constitution is held in a museum in Louisiana, details of which are in these archives , which might include other materials that describe or picture the flag.

Also, it's important to *not* confuse the name of the flag with the flag itself. The fact that there is no written evidence that it was called "the Bonnie Blue" does not add any value to the argument that they are not the same flag.

No one called the American Flag "The Star Spangled Banner" until after the anthem was written, decades after the flag was in use. None the less no one would claim that the flags from 1814 were not the same as those after because the latter is reffered to as "the star spangled banner" and prior to 1814it was not.

Or put another way, the article is about an OBJECT, and a FLAG, and the name is a secondary attribute of the Object, not a primary attribute. The governing science is such cases is art history (aided by literature), not literary reference (aided by art history).

24.21.41.187 (talk) 17:25, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I've moved this section to the bottom of the talk page, which is where most editors expect to find new information.

ZeroXero, let me know what you think of the current use of the information you added. I agree that the legislative information you added is very important. Thanks for the link to the state code as well. (It also led me to some new info for the Florida Parishes article.)

I went with "closely resembles" because it allows readers to form their own conclusions. The phrase "widely accepted" opens up questions about how widely accepted. I don't think any of us knows the answer to that. Besides, I'm uncomfortable with resolving historical questions through an appeal to public opinion.

It would be inappropriate to point out a resemblance to every single-star flag in the world, especially in the lede. But because of the overlap between the RWF and the State of Mississippi, where the Bonnie Blue made its first appearance in 1861, I think we can point out the resemblance without being accused of giving undue weight to the matter.

Anonymous wrote: I think almost any trained art historian would conclude upon finding two flags, from the same area, that were identical, that were produced 50 years apart (within one generation) were "the same flag". Our job, then, is to find the work of that trained art historian and cite it here. Making inferences based on our own viewing of museum artifacts would amount to original research and is liable to be removed. (This is an encyclopedia, not a research journal.)

Anonymous also wrote that it's important to *not* confuse the name of the flag with the flag itself. Except that this article is about the object called the Bonnie Blue Flag. When most of the content has to do with something that was not called the Bonnie Blue Flag (or not until the legislature passed a resolution in 2006), then readers become confused. Understandably.

As for your "star-spangled banner" example, you'll notice that neither Star-Spangled Banner nor Star-Spangled Banner Flag is treated as identical with Flag of the United States. Neither is Old Glory. These distinctions matter. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 15:32, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

8/10/2012 I have no issues with asserting that the Bonnie Blue is a *reincarnation* of the Flag of the Republic of West Florida. It is commonly accepted to be as much. What I do not think is appropriate saying that it *IS* the flag of the RWF, and I think residents of the West Felicianas would also refute that statement. The "Bonnie Blue" is a symbol of the Confederacy, and not the Rebellion against the Spanish (in which some descendants, seemingly, still take pride.) They may be essentially identical in appearance (perhaps even having been the same physical flag) but not the same in meaning. Saying something is "derived from" or a "reincarnation of" is different from saying "It *IS*." ...Unless, of course, you live on Pangea.  ;-)

I leave the edits to others with more expertise. I merely wanted to indicate issues. It may seem trivial, but as it says in the Wikipedia entry, a "flag" is "used as a symbol". I think the distinction is very important. Philatx (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

10/2/13

I think this page needs to be reverted back to the original article. Whoever rewrote it had an agenda. The flag came into being long before the Confederacy was formed. True .... The Bonnie Blue Flag, a single white star on a blue field, was the flag of the short-lived Republic of West Florida. In September 1810, settlers in the Spanish territory of West Florida revolted against the Spanish government and proclaimed an independent republic. The Bonnie Blue Flag was raised at the Spanish fort in Baton Rouge on September 23, 1810. In December, West Florida was annexed by the United States and the republic ceased to exist, after a life of 74 days.

False. The Bonnie Blue Flag was an unofficial banner of the Confederate States of America at the start of the American Civil War in 1861. It consists of a single, five-pointed white star on a blue field. It closely resembles the flag of the short-lived Republic of West Florida of 1810.[1]

It is the same flag, not "closely resembles".

So unless the Confederate developed a time machine ( may need a new article for that ... Confederate Time travel ) the original article should be restored.

Cimrhanzel (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Just saw this comment today. Quick reply:

The flag came into being long before the Confederacy was formed. This is not about blue flags with a single white star; it is about the flag called "Bonnie Blue." There is no record of the name before 1861. Please review the discussion above to make sure your concerns have not been addressed.

And please remember to assume good faith on the part of other editors. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 22:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

name

Where does the name come from? This needs to be included.96.52.0.249 (talk) 13:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

This article used to explain that the name came from a song about the flag by Harry Macarthy (or McCarthy). But the article keeps being revised by editors who think that it is about every flag they ever heard of that consists of a single white star on a blue field. Or (why the hell not), a red star on a blue field.

In short, this article is about three or four flags that are not the Bonnie Blue Flag, but it no longer has anything informative to say about the Bonnie Blue Flag. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 21:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 17 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

---

Bonnie Blue Flag → Bonnie Blue flag – Per WP:CONSISTENT (with other flag articles like: Modern display of the Confederate battle flag, Gadsden flag, Batavian flag, Challenger flag, Samara flag, Saint Eulalia's flag, etc., etc.); and per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS: Wikipedia does not capitalize something unless it is near-consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources. And that just isn't the case here. Various mainstream news media, North and South, American and not (e.g.: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]) render it "Bonnie Blue flag", and even some specialized vexillology sources (which we consider reliable enough to cite in articles like Flag of Mississippi) [9], and do some flag vendors [10][11], also do. It is sometimes put in quotation marks: the "Bonnie Blue" flag (e.g. [12] among many others). While "bonnie [or bonny] blue flag", entirely lower-cased, can occasionally be encountered, this is rare; the "Bonnie Blue" part is almost universally treated as a proper name, and almost always spelled "Bonnie". It is commonly referred to in mainstream news (including in the South), and in some Southern culture sites, without any "[f|F]lag" at all: the "Bonnie Blue" or the Bonnie Blue, e.g. [13][14][15][16][17][18][19]). If "flag" is optional, then it is not part of the proper name. The WP:CONSISTENT failure is also necessarily a MOS:ARTCON problem, resulting in different capitalization of [f|F] in the same sentence when 2+ flags are mentioned.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC); revised 00:29, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Additional notes:

• This is very similar to "Siamese cat" and "Rhode Island Red chicken" versus "Siamese" and "Rhode Island Red", where the descriptive labels at the end may be dropped when the context is already clear (and if you read the breed standards/registries, "cat" and "chicken" are not part of the formal breed names, and we do not capitalize them in article titles: Siamese cat). So, there's an additional WP:CONSISTENT argument: WP doesn't capitalize optional descriptors that are added on as natural disambiguation for clarity.
• The fully capitalized "Bonnie Blue Flag" is common (especially on right-wing sites, in and news and other material published in the Southern states), but is very often a reference to the song (properly "The Bonnie Blue Flag"), to derived musical works, books and films by this title, racehorse names, golf tournaments, etc., not to the flag itself.
• Some sources are completely inconsistent even in the same article (e.g., this one uses "Bonnie Blue Flag", "Bonny Blue flag", and "bonnie blue flag" in the same short piece).

Some sources that capitalize the entire phrase use encyclopedically and even journalistically incompatible capitalization practices, e.g. "The Bonnie Blue Flag That Bears A Single Star" [20], capitalizing even "a"; I also twice encountered "The Bonnie Blue Flag" with a capital t in mid-sentence. Such materials are not evidence that we should capitalize.

• All of the linked examples are just from the first search-results page at Google and at Google News; there are many, many more.
• There are other over-capitalized articles of this sort (e.g. Eureka Flag, Fort Sumter Flag, George Rogers Clark Flag. But we have to start cleanup somewhere, and I've learned the hard way that mass-moves are a poor idea in cases like these, in which people are apt to raise objections to one case and derail the group nomination despite not having objections to the rest. And bogus argument to tradition or specialized-style fallacy rationalizations may be sparked by one particular case but not others.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

• I need to look into this more before being sure I'd oppose, but looking at coverage, both in the news right now and going back into Google books, the vast majority do seem to use the current capitalization.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support after noticing that most of the capitalized versions I find seem to be the song title, not the flag itself. Dicklyon (talk) 05:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support. 'nuff said. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 06:06, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose We have the benefit of this subject being in the news right now, so it's easy to see what reliable sources are calling it. And they overwhelmingly seem to use the current name and discuss the subject as though this is the full title. --Yaksar (let's chat) 06:16, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Yaskar. The majority of news sources seem to use a capitalized "Flag" from a Google News search, so Wikipedia should follow. (Google News search) SnowFire (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Um, Wikipedia's capitalization isn't determined my news sources in particular, but all sources in the aggregate, and WP does not capitalize unless the source capitalization is virtually completely consistent. I've already proven that it is not. WP has an explicit policy at WP:NOT#NEWS that our articles are not written in news style. Over-capitalization of things that some people like to capitalize, just to be "on the safe side" and avoid receiving tedious complaints from yahoos offended that their favorite thing was not capitalized, is a hallmark of news style. Avoiding this bad and WP:POV-pandering habit is one of the main reasons we have WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS in the first place. Nor does an argument that your new sources tend to capitalize constitute any kind of argument against WP:CONSISTENT policy, which is the central argument. If we are writing "Modern display of the Confederate battle flag is an ongoing and even international socio-political debate", there simply is no argument to conflictingly finish that thought with "and proposals to use the Bonnie Blue Flag in its place have also been controversial." That is also against MOS:ARTCON.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:29, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
    • We've had this discussion before. We have different views on capitalization policy; I do think those news sources are relevant, in the exact same way that Wikipedia treats everything else like facts or the words in the title. When you say "over-capitalization", what you are saying is "the consensus of a few editors at the MOS:CAPS differs from what the vast majority of random other editors, and thus these other editors must be wrong and are over-capitalizing." I think that's an admission that the consensus is not necessarily with you. Anyway, flags, like much of the English language, are not consistent. The Confederate battle flag might have a lowercase f, and that doesn't mean anything for the title of this article. The reason I didn't cite Google Books was because when I checked there, the vast majority of the hits were about the song, which hopefully everyone can agree DOES come with a capital f, so didn't seem too useful or relevant. SnowFire (talk) 01:12, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

      Yes, mostly the song as I noted. But a few other gems show up, like this law:

      2006 Louisiana Laws - RS 25:705 — Bonnie blue flag adopted

      §705. Bonnie Blue Flag adopted

      The flag of the Republic of West Florida shall be the official flag of the Republic of West Florida Historic Region. The flag is blue with a single, white, five-pointed star. It shall be known as the "Bonnie Blue". The Bonnie Blue shall fly at all Louisiana Tourism Commission facilities, parish courthouses, and state parks in the region and is authorized to fly at all other state and local public buildings where appropriate and practical.

      which shows that the flag's name is "Bonnie Blue". And while this book caps Flag, it repeatedly refers to the flag as "the Bonnie Blue"; that much is proper name; flag is not. Dicklyon (talk) 02:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

      Yeah, and the quoted source itself veers, in its first two lines, between "flag" and "Flag". It's been my experience (as a former professional policy analyst), that legislative bodies do at least two idiosyncratic things with capitalization: They capitalize as an "importance"-signifying form of emphasis, and they capitalize differently in different kinds of lines in legislation – and that part varies by legislative body, but often one kind of title/heading is sentence case (or even all-caps) while another is not, and it has jack to do with proper names (proper-noun phrases). It's similar to many academic journals having periodical titles in title case but article titles in sentence case, and ornithology journals often capitalizing vernacular names of bird species, but broader zoology, biology, and science journals not doing so. None of this lends any weight to the argument that something is a proper noun, while failure to consistently capitalize is very strong evidence against the idea (no one writes "the pacific ocean" or "oprah winfrey").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

      SnowFire: "I do think those news sources are relevant" is a straw man. No one said they were not relevant. However, your position seems to boil down to a believe that they are the only ones relevant, and they clearly are not. Writing "flags ... are not consistent" is a meaningless hand wave. How WP writes about flags absolutely can and should be consistent, just as it is for other topics. MOS:ARTCON and WP:CONSISTENT exist for a reason. Next, news sources do not capitalize as frequently as you suggest, anyway. The bulk of my lower-case evidence (which I repeat was just from the first page of search results) is from news sources. I could dectuple the number of those examples in under an hour of copy-pasting URLs from more news sites. If "the vast majority of random other editors" thought that MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS were broken, they would not be guidelines (or at least would not say anything like what they say), yet they've been stable on these matters for over a decade, and various putsches to markedly change them have failed again and again. If you were right, then thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of things that are not capitalized on Wikipedia would be capitalized instead, the way they so often are in informal blog style, entertainment journalism, business marketing writing, etc. So, the actual reality of all this is pretty much the very definition of consensus against your viewpoint. You're taking an impassioned "fight the guidelines I don't like" stance, that seems to rely on your subjective notions of tradition and properness and a prescriptivist approach of English, but it simply does not have facts backing it up – not in the sourcing, and not in policy. Finally: "We've had this discussion before." Yes, and you do not learn from it and from RM results. Just endlessly repeating your argument no matter how many times it does not carry the day is fallacious (namely "proof by assertion"). Cf. WP:ICANTHEARYOU and WP:TE. The fact that this RM is about a "lost cause" symbol is either appropriate or ironic, I'm not sure which.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

      • Dicklyon: Thanks, that does seem at least some possible evidence that the title might be "Bonnie Blue". I'm still inclined to leave the article as is but that's a fair point.
      • SMcCandlish: I don't expect you to agree with me because unlike you I'm fine with other people having different opinions and propounding them to try to convince others, but I would expect you to understand other people's beliefs, which I think I laid out rather clearly. Yet you clearly don't. At risk of pointing out the obvious, you are the prescriptivist here dictating exactly how capitalization should work according to rules in a style guide and according to "consistency", while I'm a descriptivist. As a descriptivist, I will happily say that English is massively inconsistent and Wikipedia needs to accept that sometimes. I couldn't care less about "subjective notions of tradition and properness", but what I do care about is actual usage, and you keep saying that even your favored sources have mixed usage on capitalization. Whether the authors who made the actual usage with capital letters are influenced by "subjective notions of tradition and properness" or by alien mind control rays or by bribes is a debate you can have with the authors of the cited sources, not me. Also, you can't just claim the consensus is always with you and everyone else is a failed loser; you've been on the losing end of many arguments as well as the winning end. As have I. As has every editor. We are all volunteers contributing in good faith. Take my contribution for what it is and accept that not everyone will agree with you. SnowFire (talk) 02:53, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
        • I think we all freely admit that usage varies, and that the MOS, by expressing a preference for how WP does it, is essentially prescriptive. What it says is that we prefer to avoid caps when they're optional; when sources pretty much all cap something, so do we. Otherwise, we should not, because if we do it tells the reader that we think sources pretty much always cap this. So let's just stick with our style, and not cap where caps are optional. Dicklyon (talk) 03:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NCCAPS, simply. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
• ’’’Support’’’ per Dicklyon. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 12:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.