Talk:FSB Border Service of Russia

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Requested move 15 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There are comments about spliting the articles, so it might be better to decide on splitting before requesting further moves. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 06:32, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

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• Border Service of the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation → Border Service (Russia)
• Central Band of the Border Guard Service of the Federal Security Service of Russia → Central Band of the Border Service
• General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation → General Staff (Russia)
• Special Forces of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces → Spetsnaz GRU
• Military University of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation → Military University of the Ministry of Defence (Russia)
• Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia → Military Academy of the General Staff (Russia)

– These are all currently excessively precise and as a consequence fail WP:Concise; the full name can be given in the article. These title changes will bring these articles in line with similar pages that already satisfy WP:Concise, such as Federal Protective Service (Russia), Coast Guard (Russia), Chief of the General Staff (Russia), etc. Thanks in advance, RadiculousJ (talk) 05:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Some of these changes will introduce ambiguities. "General Staff (Russia)" could refer to the Russian Naval General Staff, the Main Staff of the Russian Imperial Army, Officers of the General Staff (officers of the Imperial Russian Army who had qualified from the General Staff Academy, but were not neccesarily assigned to the actual General Staff), the All-Russian Main Staff and possibly the Soviet General Staff, as 'Russia' continued to be used as shorthand for the USSR. "Military Academy of the General Staff (Russia)" could refer to the General Staff Academy (Imperial Russia). "Border Service (Russia)" could refer to preceding Russian organisations like the Separate Border Guard Corps, Soviet Border Troops, and the Federal Border Service of the Russian Federation Sometimes "Russian Federation" is neccessarily precise to distinguish between those organisations of Imperial Russia, the Russian SFSR, and the Soviet Union, for which 'Russia' is often used as shorthand for in English. Spokoyni (talk) 10:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • What about "General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces" or "General Staff of the Armed Forces (Russian Federation)"? "Military Academy of the General Staff (Russian Armed Forces)", or "Military Academy of the General Staff (Russian Federation)"?

  With the Border Service, given that the article covers its history within the federation, both as the independent FPS RF and as the PS FSB RF, would Border Service (Russian Federation) be appropriate?

  Lastly, would you agree that the renaming of the Spetsnaz GRU article is unlikely to be opposed? I was thinking of removing that one from this multi-page discussion and doing that one separately, or even just boldly moving it. RadiculousJ (talk) 15:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  • • "Military Academy of the General Staff (Russian Federation)" and "General Staff of the Armed Forces (Russian Federation)" would seem to be appropriate, but I am not sure that we are achieving much greater conciseness by choosing something other than the official name. Use of "Russian Armed Forces" as a disambiguator still raises the question which Russia we are talking about, so "Russian Federation" is still the best precise term. With the border service, I think we will need two articles, one for the FPS RF and the PS FSB RF. For the existing article, which deals with the post-2003 border service as part of the FSB, you might perhaps get away with "Border Service of the Federal Security Service" and still have an unambiguous title, but having Russia in the title seems more beneficial than not having it. As to the Spetznaz article, I suppose it will depend on the outcome of the GRU (G.U.) move suggestion (the current title there is indeed very poor). Though I'd probably oppose the use of GRU as perhaps more common, but incorrect - since it has supposedly been the GU since 2010 (though in 2018 at least Putin was making noises about it going back to GRU, but nothing seems to have happened). My general concern is that in attempting to shrink an article title down for the sake of making it shorter, we make it ambiguous, or even harder to find. Spokoyni (talk) 09:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment These articles have a strange set of identity crises. Many of them seem to serve double duty for both USSR and RF institutions (and even triple including the Romanov empire), and even reading the article it can be unclear whether there is a separate article about the respective counterpart or not. I oppose slapping a “(Russia)” disambiguator where it’s not warranted, as the historically habitual conflation of these distinct states is already confusing enough. Anybody care to unwind the spaghetti of articles on RF/Soviet/imperial military institutions in a table or something, so we can get a clear picture before committing to further confusion? —Michael Z. 14:16, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  It should not be ignored that the USSR institutions were succeeded by 15 national organizations in parts of their area of responsibility. —Michael Z. 13:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Border Service of the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation maybe should move to Border Guards (Russian Federation), consistent with the recent move of GRU (Russian Federation). The article doesn’t support any direct connection to imperial border services, or indirect one through Soviet Border Troops, and that section might be best split to Border Guards (Russian Empire). —Michael Z. 17:22, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Central Band of the Border Guard Service of the Federal Security Service of Russia is an fleeting subject, with notable commanders from 1932 but established in 1978. Anyway, this appears to be an article about the main orchestra of both Soviet Border Troops and the Russian Border Guards Service. To split? To rename appropriately? —Michael Z. 18:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
  • General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation: Soviet General Staff redirects here, and half of the article’s prose text is about that subject. Let’s split and rename General Staff (Russian Federation) —Michael Z. 18:10, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Special Forces of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces is similar. Represents Soviet and Russian entity. Split into Spetsnaz GRU (Soviet Union) and Spetsnaz GRU (Russian Federation). —Michael Z. 18:15, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
  • And the remaining two are similar USSR–RF articles, written as if Russia were the only successor state. The first with little historical material, the second a lot. Needs work. —Michael Z. 18:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.