Talk:Boz (king)

Bozh and Bus Beloyar

Please discuss the issue in Talk:Bus Beloyar. - Altenmann >t 17:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Stable revision

I just saw that the article had been protected due to edit warring, and administrators should note that the protected revision is the wrong one - It should be this one (the stable revision), the same as before User:Vitvak added Bus Beloyar material. Besides reverting, dont forget to remove the factual accuracy template as it was added because of User:Vitvak's additions.--Zoupan 08:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

 Not done. See m:The Wrong Version. (For the record, I was the admin who protected the page and added the disputed tag). The proper thing to do now would be for Vitvak to start talking.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); March 12, 2013; 12:12 (UTC)

Well, it's clear that User:Vitvak has disappeared.--Zoupan 01:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

No, they actually commented on the talk page of the other article.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Images

• "Племена Антов". Web Капище.; including a painting depicting Bozh. (?)
• "Антский военно-политический союз. Зарождение украинства".; same image as above.
• "Ant". Antmma.. -

--Zoupan 18:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Oldest Slav

Bozh seems to be the oldest Slavic ruler, and Slav, period, mentioned in preserved sources. Despite this, I can't find reliable English-language secondary references asserting this [fact].--Zoupan 00:06, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

• A History of the Macedonian People. Macedonian Review Editions. 1979. p. 24. and their leader, Bozh, the first Slav to be mentioned in history,

Circassians

• Život. Vol. 18. Svećenica družba Isusove u Zagrebu. 1937. p. 12. ... njih poraženi, ali ih zatim pobijedili, te pogubili sinove njihova vladara Boza, zatim Boza samoga (regemque eorum Boz nomine) ... Dosad se držalo, da su ti Anti bili isto tako Slaveni kao i kasniji Anti, a Boz ili Bož »prvi Sloven koga historija poimence spominje«.** Međutim Šora-Bekmursin donosi među »Predajama i pjesmama Čerkeza« žalobnu pjesmu o junaku Bakssanu, kojega su zajedno sa sinovima dali pogubiti Goti. U Kabardi su još prošloga stoljeća svakog travnja čerkeske djevojke pjevale raspuštenih kosa tu žalobnicu za junakom Bakssanom. I pojedini detalji te pjesme slažu se s izvještajem Jordanesovim. Zato Šora-Bekmursin drži Jordanesove Ante pređima da- 29 O tom primjećuje Šišić: »Značenje imena Anti sasvim je tamno; □p. Niederle, Antove. Prag 1909. Nije nemoguće, da je tuđega postanja t upravo ime onoga stranog dijela, koji je ...

This outdated magazine mentions the Circassian song to their hero Bakssan, of which "some details agree with Jordanes' account" (according to the editor). Needs newer, reliable source.--Zoupan 18:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Dog-men's king was called Būz

Among the numerous versions of the Acts of the Apostle Andrew there exists a long Syriac metrical work containing the story of his travel to the land of human flesh eating dog-men. It was preserved in four manuscripts (the oldest of them, Vat. Syr. 117, fol. 535–537, dates back to the 12ᵗʰ century).38 The authorship of the work was attributed to St Ephrem. The content of the Syriac Acts of Andrew reflects a common structure of the apocryphal works presenting the deeds of the Apostles. There is a motif of journey, cruel heathens, miracles, preaching and conversion. Nevertheless, the most interesting information that was mentioned in this poem is the name of the king of the dog-men. In line 192 we can read, wa rheṭ(w) meḥdā īzgaddē ṣēd Būz malkā w’emar(w) leh.39 So the dog-men’s king was called Būz (or Bōz).40 That was, however, also the name of Antes’ king as Jordanes mentioned in his Getica [...] Jordanes’ version is the only information about the Antian king Boz. Could the Syriac author of the Acts mean the Slavonian Antes as he wrote about the dog-men that were ruled by Boz? [...] The dog-men, then, were not the invention of the author of the Acts of Andrew. He could have based on the long tradition concerning those monstrous beings. Nevertheless, did he mean the Slavs when he wrote about them in his work? The Slavonian Antes lived in the region northward from the Black Sea. That was the opinion of Jordanes, “The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days’ journey apart.”44 [...] Nevertheless, according to the oldest Christian tradition, the regions where the Apostle preached the Gospel were Greece, Pontus and Scythia,46 which embraced all lands northward from the Black See. Moreover, Nestor’s Russian Primary Chronicle (the 12ᵗʰ century) informs that Andrew came even to Russia, set up a cross on the hill at the Dnepr river in the site of today’s Kiev and reached as far as Novogrod.47 This tradition was older than the 12ᵗʰ century.48 [...] The idea of dog-men itself seems to be connected with the primitive beliefs that man can transform into an animal.51 The ritual transformation of a young warrior into a wolf was widespread among the Indo-European and Turkic peoples. The latter considered themselves as descendants of the she-wolf. The phenomenon of lycanthropy was attested also among the Slavs. As early as in the sixth century Pseudo-Caesarius wrote about the Sclavenes that “call each other with the howl of wolves.”52 The repercussion of these beliefs can be traced in the Slavonian lore, e.g., the werewolves.53 Thus calling the Slavs dog-men was not impossible for the Syriac authors. Summing up, the name of king Buz, mentioned in the Acts of Andrew, could be derived from Jordanes’ Getica. The author of the work probably used the popular traditions concerning this apostle and mixed them with his knowledge about the barbarian peoples of the North. It is possible that he knew some early form of the tradition of Andrew’s sojourn in Russia. Therefore, he could have connected it with the information about the Antes’ king Boz and the lycanthropic customs of the Slavs.

— Sebastian Bednarowicz (2010). "Syriaco-Slavica. What did the Syriac medieval writers know about the Slavs" (Document). pp. 41–44. {{cite document}}: Cite document requires |publisher= (help); Unknown parameter |url= ignored (help)

Interesting, but will not find its place in the article.--Zoupan 08:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Struminskyj

According to Rospond, the name of the Antian leader is the Slavic *Bosь 'Barefooted'.¹⁰ He also cites other Slavic etymologies suggested by Stanislaw Urbanczyk in Słownik *Božь ‘Divine,’ *Vo(d)žь ‘Chief’ as being "less probable." The former would imply that the first palatalization gь > žь, etc. had already occurred in Slavic by the 370s, which is not particularly convincing because this palatalization was not yet completed in the 5th or 6th c. or even later, when the Slays were colonizing the upper Dnieper region. It was after that colonization that the Baltic Akesa, etc., changed into Očesa, etc.¹² Even less acceptable is Vo(d)žь, because it would suggest that the local East Slavic dj > ̌ӡ> ž change occurred in a period when the common Slavic language still existed. For the Ukraine George Y. Shevelov dates it to the 8th c.,¹³ but it may have been even later.¹⁴ To support the Bosь etymology also taken from Urbanczyk, Rospond refers to a passage in the Old Ukrainian [The Tale of Igor's Campaign] of 1187: [Old Cyrillic quote].¹⁵ Rospond accepted the old view first expressed by Omeljan Ohonovs’kyj in 1876 that Боусь equalled Booz in Jordanes. But if Booz was an Eastern Slav who fought against Goths, why did Gothic girls in Crimea or in Tmutorokan’, under Cumanic rule sing about "Booz’s times," rather than about "Vinitharius’s times," i.e., the victories of their ancestral king over Booz, the supposed ancestor of the Ruthenians? After all, the Goths were then on the Cumanic side, they shared in their Ruthenian booties ([Old Cyrillic]), and they dreamed of Cumanic revenge for Ṣaruxān,¹⁶ the Cumanic khan who was defeated or assailed by Ruthenians in 1068, 1107, 1111, and 1116.¹⁷ The only logical conclusion is that Боусь was considered by the Maeotic Goths to be their own hero. Since the Slavic u corresponds to ō in loanwords from Gothic e.g., *buky<böka, ‘sign of script’, we might assume that the name was something like *Bōs in Gothic. A similar feminine name really existed in West Gothic: Bōsō, of uncertain date, probably meaning ‘Sorcerer’.¹⁸ Its masculine equivalent could be *Bōs or *Bōsa cf. Anglo-Saxon Bōsa, from the 7th c.¹⁹

— Struminskyj, Bohdan (1980). "Were the Antes Eastern Slavs?" (Document). p. 788–789. {{cite document}}: Cite document requires |publisher= (help); Unknown parameter |url= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |work= ignored (help)

Struminskyj has a chapter on etymology of Antean names. 788–789 deals with Boz/Bozh.--Zoupan 00:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

King Boz

King Boz is definitely not King of early Slavs. 375 AD Vithimiris fighted against the Huns. A romanian historican tells, the Alanes was moved into the germans (Greuthunge Gotes). Result: Boz is a Hunic or a Alanic King, but not a early Slavic King. A slavic culture is archeolgic not exist before ca 545-575 AD (Time of Avar invasion to Europe). Here is the first description about Slav Raids in Roman Empire. Jordanes Venedi, Antes and Sklavenes tells from a other time of Ermanaric and Vithimiris (ca. 375-376), the time of hunnic invasion. A slavic King Boz and Sklavene-Slave continuity myths is a product of “Germanophone archaeology”, see Amory 1997. More Reference Florian Curta, "The Making of Slavs", and "The Other Europe in the Middle Ages. Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, and Cumans" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:D02:CB7:F97F:8777:4C68:F27A (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Is there ANY source except the unreliable Jordanes?

If not, shouldn't the article mention that he may be an invented character? 173.66.5.216 (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)