Talk:British Somaliland

Name of the country

The full name for British Somaliland was the British Somaliland Protectorate. - (203.211.77.225 (talk) 07:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC))

Currency of the British Somaliland Protectorate

The currency of the British Somaliland Protectorate was NOT the Pound Sterling. It was the East African shilling, which had replaced both the East African florin, and the East Africa and Uganda Protectorates rupee. - (203.211.77.225 (talk) 07:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC))

Indeed. I've adjusted the page to reflect this. Middayexpress (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

'only italian victory without german assistance'

this is inaccurate as the italians achieved victories, for example, in the mediterranean on their own (ex: operation white, operation abstention) Capt Jim (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Dervish State

in the infobox "flag-navigation" area (where you can go forwards and backwards in time, seeing who was in control of that territory) it shows that after 1960, part of British Somaliland became the State of Somaliland, and part of it became (or reverted back to?) the Dervish State,

link to image here.

but in the article for the Dervish State, it says that it was disestablished in 1920,

link to image here.

i'm confused... is this an error?∈sensorsweep 18:26, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Somaliland Protectorate

was written in the postage stamps of British Somaliland See Postage stamps and postal history of British Somaliland Böri (talk) 08:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the British Somaliland Protectorate (the territory's official name) was often abbreviated to Somaliland Protectorate. Middayexpress (talk) 18:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

State

Shall I redirect the State of Somaliland to British Somaliland? I am unable to find any book before the 1990's that mention the "State of Somaliland". I found a few that mention it in 1900's but that's it. So it seems like nothing changed at all and that this whole "indepence" thing is just a made up thing. Have you found anything on this Middayexpress? AcidSnow (talk) 23:53, 3 March 2015

Indeed, I'm not sure whether it was an actual polity let alone a state. You should first, though, paste this on the talk page. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Done. AcidSnow (talk) 22:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

What are you referring to AcidSnow? Middayexpress (talk) 22:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I moved it here. AcidSnow (talk) 22:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Understood. Middayexpress (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I have done it Midday. AcidSnow (talk) 16:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok AcidSnow. However, note that there was a redflag assertion therein claiming that certain countries recognized the area as an independent nation during the five days that the former British Somaliland protectorate was transitioning to union with the former Italian Somaliland (via the Trust Territory of Somaliland under Italian administration) to form the Somali Republic (Somalia). Middayexpress (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok. I when I was searching for "State of Somaliland" I found nothing on it, let alone this supposed recognition of something that never was. AcidSnow (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The suggestion of national recognition, even if brief, was indeed dubious. Middayexpress (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Actual Reliable Sources British Somaliland: An Administrative History, 1920-1960

https://books.google.se/books?id=t1xKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=Somaliland+is+granted+independence+by+British+government&source=bl&ots=9wPwvhw70t&sig=tEzDd83wSGu0TZ7qcg0-zccID2s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vdwIVaC-CNjiasXUguAP&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Somaliland%20is%20granted%20independence%20by%20British%20government&f=false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 02:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

From the U.S. government's Code of Federal Regulations, Proclamation 3772 (1964): "the Somali Republic came into existence on July 1, 1960, by the union of the former Italian Trust Territory of Somaliland and the former British Somaliland" [1]). Middayexpress (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a topic that really needs books as the source since there won't be many articles in the reliable News Media.

A search with Google Books does lead to some books that discuss relevant aspects. This one does not refer to it as a state but as a territory; page 223. https://books.google.ca/books?id=R9ksDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA223&dq=British+Somaliland+state&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=British%20Somaliland%20state&f=false Peter K Burian (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

British Somaliland

I did some adjustment to page in economy and education and independence and will like to set also government so i can use all help i can get to make it more reliably with much sources out there cheers and thanksHadraa (talk) 01:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

The economy and independence material were duplicates of the establishment and unification sections, respectively. At any rate, per WP:BRD, please in future first post draft passages of any significant changes you would like to make here on the talk page for discussion and consensus. Thanks, Middayexpress (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

so was the unifiction material is duplicate.Hadraa (talk) 17:55, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

AcidSnow pasted the material here when he redirected the State of Somaliland stub to British Somaliland. Middayexpress (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I've noted the original, pre-redirect independence passage, as you did with the Hargeisa infobox. Middayexpress (talk) 16:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

British Somaliland was immediately preceded by the Dervish State, not the Egypt Eyelet much less the medieval Ifat Sultanate. Per WP:BRD, please in future first post draft passages of any significant changes you would like to make here on the talk page for discussion and consensus. Thanks, Middayexpress (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

again state of somaliland came before the union plus the Egypt Eyelet and Ifat Sultanate and harari are parts of the somliland history .Hadraa (talk) 20:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. there was no such thing as the Dervish State before the english came .Hadraa (talk) 20:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

1_explain how Italian East Africa came after the end of British rule in Somaliland . despite ending in 1946 and the british left in 26 june 1960. 2_explain how the page is the same in 3 years . explain how to talk about economy and education in the former british somaliland is destructive. 3_finaly excplain how in the world is the 5 days independance of the conoly took out by you.Hadraa (talk) 01:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Italian East Africa occupied British Somaliland from 1940 to 1941. Hence preceding it and succeeding it. The economic section was original research and misrepresented/attributed a false source to it; while the education section was a copyright violation. As for the independence section, it was just a duplicate and inaccurate with its claims about Egypt and China. AcidSnow (talk) 02:05, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Please get your terminology straight. The Somaliland region wasn't established until 1991, when Somali National Movement rebels declared a new enclave of that name in northwestern Somalia. This page is on the colonial period British Somaliland protectorate, sometimes shortened to "Somaliland Protectorate". Middayexpress (talk) 15:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

That edit violates numerous policies as explained here: [2]. AcidSnow (talk) 01:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

is that the best you got . couldnt answer the questions . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 01:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

What? You were reported because you reverted five times which is a violation of 3RR. AcidSnow (talk) 01:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. And that's after I had warned him twice above to first discuss any major edits here for consensus. Middayexpress (talk) 15:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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Notable Individuals of British Somaliland

Haji Ibrahim Nur.

He also 1 of the 4 individuals to add his signature to the independence of British Somaliland along with Haji Ibrahim Egal which proves his notability. He was also a minister of British Somaliland. Refer to the sources instead of undoing my edits.

One of the four delegates to add his signature of independence. [3]

Image of the notable individuals of British Somaliland. [4] From right to left. Ahmed Haji Duale, Haji Ibrahim Egal, Sir Douglass Hall, Haji Ibrahim Nur and Garad Jama. Also another source [5].

British Somaliland Constiutional Conference 1960. [6] Refer to page 12. ~ Jamalwalal (talk) 12:04, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

He was a member of the United Somali Party, a relatively small political party (with only 16.4% of the total votes in British Somaliland [1]). Nur was minister of Social services, his name comes last in the list you have provided. He is not notable compared to any other politician on the list you have provided. There are much better choices in terms of prominent, notable politicians. For instance Egal who is the most prominent Somali politician of his time, especially from Somaliland. Somaliland's first Prime Minister in 1960, Somalia last civilian Prime Minister in 1969 [2] and Somaliland's second President in 1992 [3], he was also the leader of the majority party of British Somaliland, the Somali National League with 52.2% of the vote. Ahmed Haji Duale who was also from the dominant SNL party with 52.2% of votes and later a prominent diplomat. Michael Mariano, the leader of NUF, the second largest party in terms of votes and a very prominent politicians from the region. Even Ali Gerad Jama who was the son of one of the tribal chiefs of the country. Compared to any of them Nur is not notable enough. I do not understand why you insist on his inclusion. Kzl55 (talk) 22:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

He was chosen as 1 of the four individuals to add his signature to the independence of British Somaliland which verifies his notability.

The picture along with the other ministers is proof of his notability.

He was among the wealthiest merchants in the protectorate. Refer to the sources. [7]

He is notable under the Wikipedia Notability Guidelines.

You are free to add more notables. ~ Jamalwalal (talk) 10:34, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I have explained to you why he is not as notable as other names, he was mentioned last on the first list you quoted and second last in your other reference above. He is only mentioned one single time in the book you reference above. He may have been one of the signatories but he was from a small party (came 3rd in terms of total votes in the country.) Egal, Duale, Mariano and Jama were all more notable and influencial. In fact, when Somaliland and Somalia joined and formed a union, two members were picked from his party (USP) to be part of the government and he was not one of them [1]. Moreover, he was actually selected by Egal (the leader of both SNL and USP) who advised the governor on appointment of ministers including Nur. If you want to add a photograph of a notable politician then Egal is the most prominent politician to have come out of that region. Nur is only mentioned in passing, with his biggest achievement being a signatory of that one time event. All the names mentioned, Egal, Dualeh, Mariano, Jama were more influential than him, gained more support and had a larger impact on Somaliland. Kzl55 (talk) 19:27, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Somaliland

Unlike Warsangali and Dervish spheres of influence which were shared between Somaliland and Somalia, British Somaliland is wholly part of Somalia. Please see Encyclopedia Britannica [8]: Following the civil war that began in Somalia in the 1980s and the subsequent overthrow of that country’s government in 1991, a government opposition group, the Somali National Movement, secured the region comprising the former British Somaliland. In May 1991 they announced that the 1960 federation was no longer valid and declared their region to be an independent state, henceforth to be known as the Republic of Somaliland.Kzl55 (talk) 11:48, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Somali Republic was made of British Somaliland And Trust Territory of Somaliland (the former Italian Somaliland). Somalia Was COUNRTY that gaint indepandane in 1 July 1960 between British Somaliland voluntary united with Trust Territory of Somaliland (the former Italian Somaliland in 1 July to make the The Somali Republic i am not saying that history but that is what Us code says, therefore we should include the proposal you made on Warsangeli sultanate and Dervish state other wise please see WP:NOTADVOCATE.Somajeeste (talk) 11:53, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

The map on the Warsangali and Dervish page show both having presence in Somalia, so they could be seen as 'shared' between Somaliland and Somalia. British Somaliland had no such presences. Its territory is wholly inside the borders of Somaliland, please see Encyclopedia Britannica. My de facto note has no relation to any proposal, it is a clarification. I can remove it if it will cause any issues. Kzl55 (talk) 11:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Unless you're telling me otherwise, then the actual legislation on the union between the Trust Territory of Somaliland and the former British Somaliland is already documented by Paolo Contini in his 'The Somali Republic: an Experiment in Legal Integration (1969). we are not arguing about it, but to include Somalia ( because Somali republic was the union between those two), it will be biased and we're not heading same direction, and you are contradicting your self if you include Warsangeli sultanate and Dervish state and not British Somaliland, WP:NOTADVOCATE will explain your bias Somajeeste (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

please perform a self-revert what you doing is clear bias against some pages i saw the page you include Somaliland (de facto)Somajeeste (talk) 12:19, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

You have a clear history of disruptive editing and vandalism against Somaliland, indeed you were blocked this very week for disruptive editing. I am very happy to include examples if you dispute this.

Please read the quote above re:Encyclopedia Britannica, the whole of British Somaliland is now part of the Republic of Somaliland. Please do not conflate multiple issues. Using unsubstantiated tags like WP:NOTADVOCATE is not very helpful, neither is bullying new editors and accusing them of being socks, it is not a good look. I would advice you to stop. Kzl55 (talk) 13:00, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Changes 2 June

Dervish State changed to the more appropriate uprising/movement. Markus V. Hoehne discusses this specific point: A ‘state’ implies a minimum of centralised and institutionalised power (i.e., a government), a territory and a population. The Somali Dervish state indeed featured a clear centralised governance structure, with Sayid Mohamed Abdille Hassan on top... The Somali Dervish state never had a clearly demarcated territory. The Dervishes operated between different temporary local centres (e.g., Aynabo, Buuhoodle, Eyl, Taleeh) in northern Somalia and, for a shorter period, had also stations in central Somalia such as Beledweyn. When confronted with superior colonial forces, their usual strategy was to retreat to the sparsely inhabited and arid hinterland. Also the population of the Somali Dervish state fluctuated. It consisted largely of the close patrilineal relatives and wives of the followers of Sayid Mohamed Abdille Hassan. Only temporarily did the Dervishes establish more permanent centres of power and ruled over larger areas. Therefore, it is appropriate to speak of the Somali Dervish movement/state. [9] Abdullah Mohamoud discusses the Dervish in the context of a resistance movement: "Third and most critical was the ar between Dervish Muslim resistance movement and the colonial state. The long struggles of the Dervish movement (1900-1920) against the colonial domination have been extensively document so further repetition is not necessary."[10] Other examples include [11] and [12]. As such Dervish 'state' was removed from the infobox. Warsangali Sultanate was also removed from the infobox as it was one of several Somali sultanates present at the time, and adding all of them would clutter the infobox. The British did sign a treaty with the Warsangali in 1885, but they also signed treaties with the Habar Awal long before that (1827, and again in 1856), with the Habar Garhajis and Habar Toljaala in 1855. They then came back and signed the protectorate treaties with the Habar Awal, Gadabursi, Habar Toljaala, Essa, Habar Garhajis and Warsangali [13] (p.530). A more appropriate inclusion would be the Sultanates of Ifat and Adal. Kzl55 (talk) 11:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Khatumo

There are some sources that clai hatumo controls some territory in what was formerly British Somaliland. Hence I'm not sure why I was reverted. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 14:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The edit was unexplained and unsourced, thus reverted. Editors on Wikipedia are advised not to make original research edits and to make a habit of using reliable sources when editing Wikipedia articles. Khatumo is a group with a very limited presence on the ground and are neither a state or state-like. Furthermore, they have recently reached an agreement with the government of Somaliland two months ago which is expected to culminate in a grand conference in Burao where the constitution of Somaliland will be discussed and possibly amended. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I have added a source. Although the above source does indicate a relaxation in tension between Khatumo and Somaliland, nowhere does it indicate that Khatumo has become dissolved. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Please do not edit war or you risk your IP getting blocked from editing on Wikipedia as per WP:EDITWAR. There is no federal state of Somalia named Khatumo. As I have indicated Khatumo is an advocacy group from Somaliland, they have a very limited presence on the ground, they have signed an agreement with Somaliland with view of joining the political process (like their predecessors in SSC whose leader is now part of the Somaliland government) following the upcoming conference in Burao. If you understand Somali I can link a video of their leader confirming as much. Please cease the disruptive editing. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 20:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia requires verification through sources. Youtube videos are not acceptable as a source. Since I provided a reliable source for the addition I believe the removal was unfair. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 21:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Furthermore, my source is AFAIK reliable. It also follows the guidelines of parameters laid out in the template. Also, Khatumo very much exists, it holds territory and functions as a proto-state and de facto state. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

When the argument in question revolves around whether the Khatumo group had signed an agreement with Somaliland or not (like their predecessors the SSC, now part of the government of Somaliland) then confirmation from the leader of the Khatumo group, in any verifiable format (including a video statement) is acceptable on Wikipedia, please also see above for a VOA link. As for your comment about the existence of Khatumo, please read the source you have provided above "In 2016, the Khaatumo state was largely reduced to a nominal existence: much diaspora support was withdrawn and there were scarcely any resources to build the mini-state".--Kzl55 (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The strength of a nation has no bearing on whether it exit. Also, I have the ability to undertand the Somali language and nowhere does the VOA say Khatumo dissolved. In fact the Wiley source states that both ordinary Khatumites as well as Khatumo politicians are resolute and unyielding in their stance. A weakly substantiated claim from dubious sources saying otherwise is not very convincing. But even if strongly verified, make no difference since that is off-topic. The question is does Khatumo exist?. Answer: Yes territorially it does. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

No need to inject your own views. Please take the time to read the source you have cited above yourself "In 2016, the Khaatumo state was largely reduced to a nominal existence: much diaspora support was withdrawn and there were scarcely any resources to build the mini-state" (p.206). Khatumo is not a 'state', if you have any sources confirming the existence of Khatumo as a federal member state (of Somalia I am guessing?) then please do provide them. I have stated above that Khatumo group has reached an agreement with the government of Somaliland with view of getting incorporated into the political process (like their predecessor SSC) pending a conference in Burao. --Kzl55 (talk) 22:10, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Your VOA source actually confirms that Khatumo is a separate state through its usage of the word maamulka which any native Somali speaker will say means "state" along with dowlad. Additionally, when you look at the fact on the ground, Khatumo actually holds territory both on the southern border of British Somaliland as well as on its eastern border, then you cannot say that Khatumo is non-existent. It de facto exists. The Wiley source also uses a lower-case "state" suggesting its not used a a proper noun but rather a noun, hence corroborates the notion of Khatumo as a state. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Its simple. If you are claiming Khatumo to be a state, please provide citations for exactly which entity/polity accepts Khatumo as a state, is it a state within Somaliland? Please provide a source. Likewise if you are claiming Khatumo to be a federal state member of Somalia. Unless of course you are claiming Khatumo to be a de facto independent state out with Somaliland/Somalia, in which case also please provide a citation for that. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 23:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I never said Khatumo is a state - i'm merely repeating what the sources state. Even the source that you provided says its a state by using "maamulka" which in the Somali language means "state". If even the sources you tried to use as dismissing it as a a state call it a state, don't you see your argument is causing a paradox? 92.13.137.81 (talk) 23:06, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

If you are not claiming its a state then why are you adding it to the infobox? --Kzl55 (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Because both your source (VOA) and my source (Wiley) describe it as such, in the Somali and English languages respectively. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 23:25, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The article Khatumo State says that "officially the Khatumo State of Somalia is an unrecognized proto-state". According to this book, it cannot even define its boundaries.https://books.google.ca/books?id=HEe6DgAAQBAJ&pg=PA209&dq=borders+of+Khaatumo+State+of+Somalia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYuPGV9-HVAhVsw4MKHaBrCsAQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=borders%20of%20Khaatumo%20State%20of%20Somalia&f=false Peter K Burian (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The same source also says that it has road signs indicating entrance to Khatumo (in Buuhoodle district) and it also has a military that was sturdy enough to repel Somaliland forces trying to enter Buuhoodle. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 23:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

A Proto-state, "also known as a quasi-state, is a political entity which does not represent a fully institutionalized or autonomous sovereign state".

The proto-state suffered in 2016! https://books.google.ca/books?id=HEe6DgAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=Khaatumo+State+Somaliland&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Khaatumo%20State%20Somaliland&f=false Peter K Burian (talk) 23:45, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

IP, I repeat my question above: if you are claiming Khatumo to be a state, please provide citations for exactly which entity/polity accepts Khatumo as a state, is it a state within Somaliland? Please provide a source. Likewise if you are claiming Khatumo to be a federal state member of Somalia. Unless of course you are claiming Khatumo to be a de facto independent state out with Somaliland/Somalia, in which case also please provide a citation for that. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Thats a strawman question so I won't answer that. Its like saying "if you enjoy sport do you like volleyball or baseball?" I am not aware if other entities accept Khatumo or not. I am not obligated to provide a source for a claim that my edit did not make. Since our conversation is going in circles it would be preferable we wait for outside input. One of the reasons discussions with kzl is fruitless is because he contantly contradicts himself. For example in June (in the section above) he said that a state requires 3 things; a government, a population and a territory. Now, in August he suddenly rejects that as sufficient criteria. *facepalm* 92.13.137.81 (talk) 00:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

You are within your rights not to answer the question, but on Wikipedia you can not state or imply Khatumo is a state without providing adequate citation. I have given you all three possible options and asked to choose whichever you deem correct and provide reliable sources for it, I am happy for the discussion to end here seeing as you are refusing to source the claim Khatumo is a state. You have been blocked in the past for precisely this pattern of disruptive editing, I see you have not changed. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

RFC on Khatumo

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Snow consensus to exclude the proposal.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 10:19, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

---

Should the infobox include or exclude Khatumo via this edit? 92.13.137.81 (talk) 00:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Include. There are multiple citations describing Khatumo as a state: state, maamulka (which means state), autonomous state, [14] and "goboleed" (literally: regional state), Reuters uses lower case "state" as a noun (not a proper noun), breakaway state, The Economist: "federal state", new state, AllAfrica.com "state in northern Somalia", etc. 92.13.137.81 (talk) 01:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose inclusion: As per discussion above. Citations from random blogs in passing are no grounds for inclusion and verges on original research. You have been asked repeatedly to provide citations from reliable sources as to the claim of Khatumo being a 'state', specifically on which entity/polity is Khatumo a state of? Is it a state within Somaliland? Somalia? A de facto independent state? [15], ([16], [17]). You have flat out refused to answer the question [18], which is bizarre given this RfC. You have also been advised by members of the community on this page [19], [20], [21], as well as their talk page (upon your solicitation) [22] that Khatumo should not be included. I suggest you give it a rest, disruptive editing is what got your previous account on Wikipedia indefinitely blocked. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: As mentioned by the editor above there are no credible citations that indicate that Khaatumo is a state, with Peter K Burian providing credible sources that indicate that Khaatumo is an unrecognized proto-state [23] [24]. Unless the IP editor can provide credible sources that state that Khaatumo is a recognized state with clearly defined borders, there is no reason to add Khaatumo to the infobox. Koodbuur (talk) 13:53, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: ImTheIP (talk) 22:09, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
• Yeah, we really should not include a proto-state. One day it might become a state and then we should do so. Peter K Burian (talk) 01:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1884 or 1888 ?

Please find a source to this alleged 1884 foundation date. Thks, --Marc-AntoineV (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)