Talk:Ivory Coast

"Côte d'Ivoire," listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Côte d'Ivoire, has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 5 § Côte d'Ivoire, until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 22:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Link for "Ivorian"

My reasoning: I disagree that "Ivorian" NOT having a link somehow makes the article better. Before I added more, several African & South American country articles linked the demonym to the article with its exact name. Around half the time, it was a redirect to the people (e.g. Peruvian redirects to Peruvians). For countries that don't have an article for the people, the demonym redirects to "Demographics of [country]". (This is before I copied that format for the rest of the African countries.) The Ivorian article has multiple links, letting the reader choose, rather than me dictating by linking to "Demographics of Ivory Coast".   — TARDIS builder^✉     •       05:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 27 June 2024

Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams ([1]) and should be used per WP:Common name. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast [2], although that is of little value per WP:Official name.Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose A quick search of both terms shows me that Ivory Coast is more common among highly reputable English language media companies. Killuminator (talk) 13:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. Killuminator (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current NY Times, AP News, Financial Times, ESPN, Reuters News, The Guardian, even the Dept of Agriculture. Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per WP:Common name. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Please see Article title#Foreign names and anglicization, The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively). Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:

• [3] Britannica
• [4] UN
• [5] Ground News
• [6] The Independent
• [7] Amnesty International
• [8] Gov.uk
• [9] World Bank
• [10] CIA Factbook
• [11] IMF
• [12] Human Rights Watch

Kowal2701 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire [13], just citing the department of agriculture is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast

• Los Angeles Times
• New York Times
• Aljazeera
• San Diego Tribune
• Reuters news
• Air France
• CNN
• NBC
• Trip Advisor
• Bloomberg
• World Wide Chocolate
• AP News
• Phys.org
• BBC uses both terms BBC, and BBC

There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used predominantly per WP: Article title#Foreign names and anglicization Kowal2701 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence for that? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I did above... did you not see them? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources Kowal2701 (talk) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME in the English speaking world, Ivory Coast is still the name of choice. I don't see that anything has really changed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Per ngrams [14] Côte d'Ivoire is used more often in english media Alexanderkowal (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --_ZZ^Z'S 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support (strongly) per reasons listed by nominator, etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. Here's the ratio of the two names — Côte d'Ivoire, with or without diacritics, is more common than Ivory Coast name since approximately 2004. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Wikipedia, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". Geschichte (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  ? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Wikipedia. It is one tool we use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied Kowal2701 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time Kowal2701 (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also WP:OFFICIALNAME). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. Station1 (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  The policies you've cited contradict your position. From WP:ENGLISHTITLE The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).

  Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. WP:Official name says nothing to contradict this move. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  You are citing WP:UE, not WP:ENGLISHTITLE, which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. Station1 (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then it is English. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. Kowal2701 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  ^ as the policy says Kowal2701 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Lots of loanwords have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding Kowal2701 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so appeals to authority, usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. Station1 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp Kowal2701 (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either Kowal2701 (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Linguistics of the use of Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.Moxy🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics Kowal2701 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then it is english Kowal2701 (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire [Ivory Coast]". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :Erp (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". CMD (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas Erp (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Here's the thing, the CIA and US govt also use "Burma" instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. _ZZ^Z'S 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Please can you answer the question Kowal2701 (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side Kowal2701 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. WP:Official name#Valid use of official names goes by commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.

Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by Google Maps, Britannica and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.

I'd also point out that WP:NCGN#Use_English states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. TDL (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the use of a colonial-era name that is not the most common English-language name for the country. From South Korea to East Timor and Brunei to Vietnam, Wikipedia routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power. A perusal of the actual Ngram results (not just the numbers) shows a plethora of UN documents which necessarily follow the diktat of Ivorian authorities. Wikipedia is not a diplomatic manual, but a general encyclopedia, and as such should adhere to the principle of least astonishment and use the common, English name. —  AjaxSmack  06:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  Both names are colonial era Kowal2701 (talk) 08:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English says:

When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon". Kowal2701 (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

  Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad Kowal2701 (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, for now Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Wikipedia article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the common name. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. Svampesky (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• For future RM discussions, nom should heed WP:GOOGLELIMITS, which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and WP:DPT, specifically: Tools that may help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons) include [...] Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google Ngram viewer (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here Kowal2701 (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it Kowal2701 (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)