Talk:Capture of Fez (1554)

Requested move 23 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The proposed name has a clear consensus (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 22:19, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

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Conquest of Fez → Capture of Fez (1554) – "Conquest of Fez" is too vague and ambiguous: Fez has been conquered and captured many times and therefore the title needs some kind of disambiguation. This particular occasion isn't widely referred to in sources as the "Conquest of Fez"; indeed, I haven't seen any particular name given to it in multiple sources (e.g. Abun-Nasr, cited here, or Daniel Rivet's history of Morocco, or the entries at Encyclopedia of Islam, etc). Secondly, I would argue that to many readers "conquest" implies a more decisive or more permanent outcome, whereas in this case the city was controlled by the victorious party for less than a year before returning to the Saadians who maintained control in the longer term. The proposed title would make it consistent with a similar page Capture of Fez (1576), which also describes a (longer-lasting) capture of Fez by Ottoman forces and allies. R Prazeres (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Hello, I agree with you. Regards, --Askelaadden (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support conquest of Fez (1554) as conquest of Fez (1664) by Ismail Ibn Sharif and conquest of Fez (1248) by the Merenids etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Srnec (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support. "Capture of Fez" is more clearly the taking of a town. Conquest insinuates a larger region. However, I am a little disinclined to leaving it alone without "Ottoman" in the prefix. Why not "Ottoman capture of Fez"? Fez has been captured many times by other parties (Almoravids, Almohads, Marinids and, of course, the Saadians themselves). It feels like it needs a disambiguator. Walrasiad (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Algerian" vs "Ottoman"

Hi Askelaadden and other IP (2a04:cec0:1085:4d76:f8df:f977:2e08:ee).
To be clear, Algeria was a dependency of the Ottoman Empire at the time and the commander was Ottoman, as is well-known, so the IP is not wrong on this point. Things get less straightforward in later periods but there is enough literature on the relations between the Algerian beylerbeys and Istanbul in this period to make it clear that the former were governors appointed by, and answering to, the Ottoman sultan (see for example Abun-Nasr 1987 or Hess 1978 for some well-cited books that cover the general topic; see also some interesting articles by Emrah Safa Gürkan for insights into the power relations between the sultan and the governor in Algiers). The sources cited inline (which are also quite old) may use the word "Algerian", undoubtedly for valid reasons given the geographic base of the army, but that does not automatically reflect a claim on the status of Algeria, which was not an independent state at the time. It's reasonable to assume that the phrase "Algerian victory" written here, alongside other information clearly referring simultaneously to the Ottomans, is confusing to a general reader. A better wording could include both "Ottoman" and "Algerian" here, but it's also valid to simplify it to "Ottoman victory" if no other clear wording is possible. Either way, there's edit-warring right now so please discuss here first. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

A better alternative that is less likely to confuse anyone is "Algerian-Ottoman". It's a well known fact that all those who lived in Ottoman Algeria considered themselves as Algerians (this is easily sourced). M.Bitton (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for your messages. I agree with M.Bitton, we can use the term "Algerian-Ottoman". Thanks, --Askelaadden (talk) 20:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Algerian-Ottoman works fine indeed. R Prazeres (talk) 20:46, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Rais Salah was an ottoman privateer of Algiers not an algerian and why adding Fez is a vassal state of ottoman if it's not Pikachu5D (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If what I said above is too difficult for you to understand, we'll stick with what the sources (about the subject) say. M.Bitton (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, Algiers Regency had to pay taxe, so it wasn't independant, it's clear enough. Military and politic leader was an Ottoman (Salah Rais). Pikachu5D (talk) 20:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't waste my valuable time talking to edit warriors, especially when they clearly have nothing to say. M.Bitton (talk) 20:57, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Put "Algiers Regency Victory", it's better Pikachu5D (talk) 20:57, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Pikachu5D, edit-warring will not help to impose your suggestions (see Wikipedia:EDITWAR). Unless someone else weighs in, there is already a consensus here for simply changing it to "Algerian-Ottoman", which is essentially a similar suggestion. If you want to oppose this, you'll need to solicit consensus from more editors (who are not related to you). R Prazeres (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Algiers Regency was independant ? No. Who lead army ? Mainly Salah Rais with wattasid and kuku help. Is it only an algerian victory ? No. Is it an victory of Algiers Regency ? Yes. Are you wasting time ? Yes Pikachu5D (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

•  Note: If this new account tuns out to be another sockpuppet of Ifni95's (SPI already underway), we'll stick with Algerian (which is sourced and is sure to make them come back for more). M.Bitton (talk) 21:15, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

??? These sources should be added too [1], [2] and not only its from someone who disagrees. Pikachu5D (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Révisionism

Stop with historical revisionism, Algeria wasn't a country yet 41.92.88.117 (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Since I have no wish to waste my time with yet another single purpose IP (whose only two edits consist of POV pushing and casting aspersions), I changed the parameter to "Algerian-Ottoman" (per the above consensus). Further changes/reverts that go against consensus will be reported to the admins. M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)