Talk:Carpathian Romani

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Merge?

Upon looking at the list of dialects at this article and the Carpathian Romani language one, I noticed that they're pretty much the same. We don't need two articles about the same subject, so which one should be merged into which? --Khoikhoi 21:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest merging Carpathian Romani language into this article, in accord with the dialect classification and terminology current in mainstream Romani linguistics -- Viktor Elšík 13:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Traditional Areas Where NCR is Spoken

The North Central dialects of Romani are traditionally spoken by some subethnic groups of Roma (Gypsies) in the Czech Republic, Slovakia (with the exception of its southwestern and south-central regions), southeastern Poland, the Transcarpathia province of Ukraine, and parts of Romania's Transylvania.

What about Hungary? After all, Prof. Ian Hancock's ancestor, Benczi Imre, "left Hungary...during a large migration that brought Romungre Romanies both to western Europe and to the United States." --Kuaichik 04:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAHA "Hungary's Transylvania under Romanian ocupation"... PLEASE!!! Can Hungarian be more pathetic? Spreading propaganda on a page about a Rroma dialect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.186.159.54 (talk) 02:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

NCR in Hungary

So now that Olahus has included Hungary as another location of NCR-speakers (Romungre Rroma), I wonder - what dialect do they speak? --Kuaichik (talk) 14:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Romungro is the most spoken Romany dialect in Hungary. --Olahus (talk) 15:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where this information comes from. Romungros are the Romas living in Hungary (since before the state was formed), but their mother tongue is Hungarian as spoken by all Hungarians. Languages of minorities, such as Slovak or Serbian can be used in some municipalities, but Romungro is an ethnicity, not a language and certainly not a dialect of anything other Roma groups are speaking. 145.236.136.243 (talk) 21:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Moved to "...Romany"

Oh, puh-leeze. Why is it that Romani-related articles are moved so often without getting anything even close to a consensus?! Or in this case, not even a second opinion! --Kuaichik (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You can discuss the issue in the talk page of the article Romany language. --Olahus (talk) 15:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

...which is now Romani language! Now what? Why not move the article back to North Central Romani? --Kuaichik (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I suport the move back to North Central Romani pending a consensus in the RfC at Talk:Romani language. —Zalktis (talk) 12:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Zalktis, unfortunately there is no consesus. Maybe the aeticles shouls be moved to Romungro - this is the most common denomination. --Olahus (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Major inaccuracies

• Not only is North Central Romani not synonymous with Romungro, but in fact the two are mutually exclusive, because Romungro belongs to the South Central Romani branch and not to the North Central Romani one. South Central Romani includes Romungro (east) and Vend (west, including Burgenland Romani), whereas North Central Romani is chiefly represented by the so-called East Slovak and West Slovak dialects spoken in Czechoslovakia. See "Romani: a linguistic introduction" by Matras (also his outline here), Boretzky & Igla, Kommentierter Dialektatlas des Romani. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag 2004. Teil 1: Vergleich der Dialekte., and even the title by Boretzky that has been cited here from the start ("Boretzky, Norbert. 1999. Die Gliederung der Zentralen Dialekte und die Beziehungen zwischen Südlichen Zentralen Dialekten (Romungro) und Südbalkanischen Romani-Dialekte").

• This is a minor point, but one that I think has engendered some of the subsequent confusion. The article claims that the obsolete term "Carpathian Romani" is synonymous with North Central Romani (or Romungro); in fact, it has tended to be used as synonymous with Central Romani in general. Thus Romungro could possibly be said to belong to "Carpathian Romani", all while being nearly the exact opposite of "North Central Romani", and despite the fact that both of the latter two terms currently redirect to the same article. This general use of "Carpathian Romani" is evident in several places besides our own Romani language article; both the Ethnologue website and Romani linguist Kochanowski (cited in Yaron Matras, Romani: a linguistic introduction, p.219) clearly regard what they call "Carpathian Romani" as a major subdivision on a par with Balkan, North-Eastern (Baltic & Russian) and Vlax, without any reference to the division between northern and southern dialects within this central area. Kochanowski explicitly defines Carpathian as including "Hungary, Czechoslovakia, southern Poland", and he cannot possibly mean just Northern Central dialects here, because these can't be said to include Hungary (a country not even mentioned under "North central dialects" by Matras on p.8 or here). The "carpathian = north central" identification would appear to have been suggested on Wikipedia by Romani linguist Viktor Elšík [1], but I don't think he literally meant an exclusion of South Central varieties; as far as I can see, the point he was trying to make was simply that the term "Carpathian Romani" is obsolete and that Bohemian Romani, like most of the "Carpathian" dialects, was in fact "North Central". Whatever we call it, we need to have a separate article about Central Romani in general, just as we have ones about the other major subdivisions ("Balkan Romany language", "Vlax Romany language" etc.).

• Contrary to what a user has suggested above, Romungro is not the most spoken Romany dialect in Hungary, because as Yaron Matras points out (Romani: a linguistic introduction, p.9), "in Hungary itself, Romungro is only spoken by a very small number of speakers, following a large-scale shift to Hungarian". Ironically, it is instead preserved ... in Slovakia. In Hungary itself, Vend seemingly hasn't suffered as bad a fate as Romungro, and yet Ethnologue estimates that Hungary has only 3,000 Carpathian Romani speakers left as opposed to as many as 20,932 Vlax Romani speakers.

The inaccuracy seems to have crept in gradually, starting with the identification with Carpathian Romani by User:Jlittlet ([2]), going through the identification with Romungro by User:Themightyquill ([3]), and finally with the addition of more statements concerning Romungro by user:Olahus (diff) Therefore, I will revert to the last version preceding the first of these edits, which is mostly identical to the one created by Viktor Elšík himself.--Anonymous44 (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Not only that, but I would put that the title is the wrong way round, it should be Central Northern, not North Central (which would be Bergitka and Čerhari. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Merge from Bergitka Roma

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This merge proposal has been undiscussed since 2014 (except by User: Piotrus). I have removed the merge tags from both pages because it is clear from the current version of the articles that Bergitka Roma is about "a Roma ethnic sub-group, living mostly in Poland", whereas Carpathian Romani is about "a group of dialects of the Romani language". This is without prejudice to any editor proposing a merger again. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:28, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

---

It seems to me those articles discuss the same ethnic group. Bergitka Roma is a variant of the name common in Poland, I think? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.