Talk:CJ Bott

Requested move 25 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to C. J. Bott. After going through the below discussion, there is clear consensus to move this article to C. J. Bott. (closed by non-admin page mover) NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 12:18, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

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Catherine Bott (footballer) → CJ Bott – Per WP:NCSP: If the person is best known with a middle name or abbreviation, then the title should reflect that. The current article lede implies that CJ Bott is the WP:COMMONNAME, rather than Catherine Bott. This seems to be supported by the individual's own social media stuff [1], [2], her national team/association [3], the sport's global governing body [4] (who seem to use C.J. and CJ interchangeably) and current club Vittsjö GIK [5]. I do think when the article was created it was titled correctly according to the sources available at the time [6], but that as her notability and prevalence of sources has increased the circumstances have changed to the point where the article should be moved. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 12:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisted. PI Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 06:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Relist note: members of interested WikiProjects have been notified that this request has been reopened and relisted. PI Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 06:18, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Previous closure
The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 16:09, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - according to sources on the article sshe is called Catherinr Bott by NZFA and FIFA (link appears broken), as well as BBC. GiantSnowman 16:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes she used to be called Catherine by the NZFA (and by extension FIFA), but isn't any more. That was rather the point! Also the BBC use 'CJ' much more than 'Catherine', for example: 1, 2, 3, 4. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 18:34, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose and it would be C. J. for Catherine Joan in an encyclopaedia. This isn't a blog. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:50, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Well there seems to be a few CJs in among the C.J.s at C. J. (given name)? Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

There are 3 among 20, and they are equally silly. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:31, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

That's not true, is it? Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 13:36, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support. I identified CJ Bott as the common name. As mentioned above, in general, C. J. is to be preferred. This too can be overruled by WP:COMMONNAME. To rid the dab, we should definitely use CJ instead of Catherine. gidonb (talk) 03:57, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per GiantSnowman and In ictu oculi. The BBC is one source only and not absolutely reliable in terms of naming convention, especially as they habitually discard full stops and spaces between initials and surnames. The argument needs a wider range of sources. Also, I see no pressing need to discard a disambiguation. No Great Shaker (talk) 07:33, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support The person's own preferences (as seen on her Twitter and Instagram accounts) should carry strong merit in such discussions. Furthermore many media use CJ, such as stuff.co.nz, Fox Sports, Newshub, NZ Herald, FIFA, TVNZ, Sporting News, CBS, US Soccer, CNA. Seems clear and cut to me. --SuperJew (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. If moved, should certainly be to C. J. Bott. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:18, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
• Weak support per detailed nomination, Gidonb and SuperJew. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, as already pointed out, with CJ van der Linde, CJ McCollum and CJ Velleman, as well as quite a few others, such as BB Gandanghari, CC Sabathia, GG Allin or JJs, including JJ Engelbrecht, JJ Gagiano, JJ Lehto, JJ Lin, JJ Redick or JJ Williams (soccer). There are also TJs (TJ Cox, T. J. Goree, TJ Perenara, TJ Trinidad) and numerous others. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:14, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support, the 3 references that are to 2019 articles all use CJ or C. J. C. J. Bott is also acceptable. SnowFire (talk) 17:35, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

As nominator I am happy for either CJ or C.J. to be used. When I had this RM reviewed I flagged up an identical RM which was waved through straight after this one was torpedoed (Talk:C. J. Gardner-Johnson). I remain surprised and disappointed at In ictu oculi's high-handedness here because they're a usually-sensible editor. Either they can't count or they deliberately attempted to mislead. Giant Snowman's contribution is idiotic, although that's rather less of a surprise. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 13:32, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support A common name can indeed change and that's what has happened here. I don't mind at all what form the initials take, be it CJ or C.J. or C. J. Schwede66 20:11, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 3 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. MOS:INITIALS explicitly allows for leaving out the periods, even if it goes against Wikipedia "house style", if doing so is well-sourced as the supporters have done. As for weighing the opposing arguments:

• An opposer forgot the exception existed.
• A second opposer disputed whether it was standard in the UK to omit the dots in initials (irrelevant per both MOS + sourcing).
• Another opposer denied the exception existed, even though it was right in the MOS.
• Two other opposers didn't want the article to have a "J" in the name (irrelevant; the previous RM already dealt with that).

Overall, the opposing arguments carry negligible weight, and I'll hand this one to the supporters. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 01:37, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

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C. J. Bott → CJ Bott – Having seeing the source on today's transfer to Leicester (https://www.lcfc.com/news/2467892/cj-bott-signs-for-lcfc-women) plus the Olympics website (https://www.olympic.org.nz/athletes/cj-bott/), the recent websites indicate they don't name this player with the dots and space. That adds to some of the comments in the previous RM supporting this naming variant. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Turnagra (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support The relevant part of our manual of style, MOS:INITIALS, tells us that our standard format is to use periods followed by a space, unless the subject "demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for their own name" and that style is the clear majority in reliable sources. Both of those are the case here. Indeed, I'm struggling to find any reliable sources that use the current name structure at all!--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 10:52, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and recent sources. GiantSnowman 10:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. In general, in the UK (and much of the rest of the Commonwealth) we would use CJ or C J, without full stops. It's not a case of preferred style, but simply the style of a particular country. Being British, it's how I'd write it myself. However, Wikipedia has a house style and this is it. In this instance, consistency is better. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• That's totally fair, but as noted above the relevant page of that manual of style makes clear that the proposed name should be used given its usage in reliable sources and by the subject's preference.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:21, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• In that case, probably almost every article about a British person using initials should probably remove the full stops from the title, as most reliable sources aren't going to use them! This opens a massive can of worms for article titling. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support per my original nomination. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 19:16, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose full stops remains normal in UK. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:53, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. I see plenty of citations calling her Catherine Bott or C. Bott in one case. I don't see any reason to break from the Manual of Style when there's little to no evidence that the suggested target is the favoured form of her name. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Our style guide says to use the current title format. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose I'd rather the article move to the title Catherine Bott, :/ Common names and nicknames should serve as a redirect in my view. Govvy (talk) 07:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  There is already an article called "Catherine Bott", who "is a British soprano and a Baroque specialist." Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  It's pretty clear that Catherine Bott is no longer (has never been?) the WP:COMMONNAME preferred by the article subject, so unless there's consensus to change WP policy Govvy's personal view is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Seany91 (talk) 23:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• Question Hmm, if there are two Catherine Bott's, shouldn't the Catherine Bott be a disambiguation page?? Govvy (talk) 12:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  Agree since that soprano one doesn't seem to be WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and some sources on the footballer article has the full first name version as Celia Homeford pointed out. The dab page would certianly be needed if this article gets moved back to Catherine Bott (footballer). Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:25, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom and especially the WP policy-based argument from Yaksar above. Seany91 (talk) 01:10, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

  Also pointing out that the subject herself uses CJ Bott, as does her club (Twitter, Instagram, club). This clearly satisfies conditions laid out in MOS:INITIALS. Seany91 (talk) 18:29, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Done Dr. Vogel (talk) 01:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)