Talk:Centralism (Peru)

Edit Warring

A use named @WMrapids it constantly reverts edits made talking about the Inca empire, despite the fact that most users agree with them. Their argument is that the user @Armando AZ has done original research on the matter (which is not allowed on Wikipedia). I open this discussion to avoid a possible edition war. Alfredo18elguapo (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The main argument used by the user WMrapids is the age of the sources. They seem to be taken from reliable sources. I'm going to get here, discuss in a friendly way and respecting the rules, guys. Alfredo18elguapo (talk) 18:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I start, the argument that the sources are too "old" does not seem correct to me, since in the same article the source that talks about the Viceroyalty is currently 18 years old (1995). Second, the first article that the phrase "organization in the Inca Empire" referred to literally speaks of the fact that they (the Spanish) inherited the system from the Quechuas/Incas (and these in turn from the Wari and Tiwanaku empires), for which the same source indicates that it is an heir system of these. Third, the second redirect talks about how the empire was the most successful centrally planned economy in history, and the source used is the same one that I cited in this article. The last source indicates that mining (which was what the Spanish exported to the old world) through the mita was a system that benefited Cusco/Cuzco city, bringing indigenous people from other regions to exploit them economically, just as they would the Spanish years later with the mit'a.

The sources are all from reliable sites like Academic Press, etc. If you review the pages you will see that either they do not appear or they are in green, I took care of that. I just don't understand where that argument comes from. I hope that the user WMrapids knows how to justify this. Armando AZ (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

(small clarification on the last thing) the only ones that do not appear are sources that are in Spanish, for obvious reasons. Wikipedia in Spanish currently has not incorporated a system or guide of which sources can be used and which not, it all depends on the case, so of course there is no fixed guide of which sources we can use or not in these cases, keep in mind Also note that most of the sources in this article are taken from the Spanish Wikipedia. Armando AZ (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I am not arguing that the sources are too old, what is happening is that you are blindly using sources that were placed in the Government of the Inca Empire article 10 years ago, without providing any quotes or context, to suggest that the modern efforts of centralizing around Lima are linked to the Inca Empire. The Government of the Inca Empire article does not state this and, unless you have access to the sources that were placed in the article 10 years ago, it is dubious to think that you know the content of such sources. That is why I suggested quotes if in fact you did have access; instead you added some sources that discussed artisans bringing goods to Cusco and another that discussed the Spanish use of the M'ita in Bolivia, which are completely unrelated. So, all of this appears to be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.--WMrapids (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Clarify that the discussion on the use of "puppets" is a separate case. Having said that, in the last editions I made before they reversed it, there is a perfect context of the transition from said system to the Spanish empire, all because this is mentioned at the beginning: "The Viceroyalty of Peru was the most centralized colony of the Spanish Empire , with administration being limited outside of Lima, especially throughout the Andes". This is implying that the centralized system comes from the colonial era, without explaining then why it differed from other Spanish colonies. That is not giving a context. The truth is that (as the article in Spanish explains well), the system was never specifically centralized in Lima, since other cities and ports such as Callao and Piura took on a different role in this system during different times. This both before and after independence. All of this indicates that political and economic centralism dates back to much earlier: at least throughout the Peruvian territory, since the Inca Empire. For that reason now the redirect redirects to this last article, after I modified it.

On the other hand, looking at your edits it seems you didn't notice any of the changes I made, for example most of the sources I cite are from 2000 onwards. Many of the sources used in this article predate that.

If we put ourselves at your criteria, all sources prior to 2012 would have to be removed from the article. Armando AZ (talk) 01:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids By the way, it was so much that you did not pay attention, that you did not notice that the sources had a direct quote, in the cases of 7 and 9 by numbering. Armando AZ (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources

I will leave the text here together with the references:

...this was partly due to the inheritance of the form of economic organization in the Inca Empire (centralized in the Cuzco city). --- Armando AZ (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I called @Alejandro Basombrio to see if he can help us with this. Armando AZ (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Armando AZ: The issue is that the older sources (which were placed 10 years ago and are from physical publications that are difficult to access) do not say in the existing articles that Centralismo is related to the Inca Empire. There may be similarities that are mentioned in the sources (though basing our information on similarities would violate WP:SYNTH), but they do not explicitly link the Inca Empire and Centralismo. The new sources you presented with the quotes are also not directly related to Centralismo.

Overall, is it plausible that there are links? Maybe. But we are going to need better sources. I can help and take a look around for the possible links myself when I have the chance. WMrapids (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The references I presented are basically the same as a few days ago, and as you can see most are from after 2000 or 2010. Armando AZ (talk) 21:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The only thing that has changed is the format... Armando AZ (talk) 21:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@WMrapids Most of your claims just don't make sense, and you change your argument as sources improve. Armando AZ (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

In case they are useful to someone, the appointments are: "Undoubtedly, and how suggested Nathan Wachtel (1980), he must have been inspired in pre-Hispanic systems such as the one that organized the Inca Huayna Capac in the corn valleys of Cochabamba, mobilizing a labor contingent male of very similar proportions [...]", "As artisans [the Incas] they had many limitations, which is why they mobilized entire populations of artisans —called mitmas— from their place of origin to Cusco, to manufacture the objects required by the elite". They are of the same quality or higher than the quote from the Spanish Viceroyalty or the attempts to decentralize the country, so either half of the article is deleted or one is aware that they have WP:verifiability. Armando AZ (talk) 21:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

And it is not about original research since the second is extracted from a text that talks about mining in the Inca empire and how it was transformed during the Spanish colony, that is, it is directly related to the text. Armando AZ (talk) 21:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

None of what you are presenting is discussing the current situation of centralismo... WMrapids (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Nor does your citation of the Spanish Empire have anything to do with it, it literally does not meet any of the criteria you have marked. Armando AZ (talk) 22:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 28 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 14:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

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Centralismo (Peru) → Centralism (Peru) – WP:ENGLISHTITLE. The process is commonly called Centralism in English, including in Peruvian media (first link). Centralism is a well-known word in English, eg. Democratic centralism.

https://andina.pe/ingles/noticia-peru-pm-building-decentralized-united-country-is-the-major-challenge-725916.aspx

https://www.ipsnews.net/2023/02/racism-privilege-centralism-lima-goad-protesters-peru/ Lucjim (talk) 00:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.