Talk:Ain o Salish Kendra

NGO, not built by political parties

This organization was formerly listed in the category Category:Non-governmental organisations based in Bangladesh but that was removed with the edit summary "It adds nothing to say it is an NGO. Non-defining." In Bangladesh it is hugely important to be able to find lists of NGOs, and the wikipedia category is such a list. The page said it is a "non-partisan" organization, which I have removed, because that suggests that it was set up by cooperation between political parties, which is not the case. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:43, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Rathfelder I live in the United States, and in the United States NGO or non-profit status is a defining characteristic. Can you say something more about why you feel that this category should not be used for this organization? Is there something different in Bangladesh? Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

By definition 99% of organisations are Non-governmental - in Bangladesh as elsewhere. I think in the USA usage has grown up where NGO means something a bit more specific, but my impression is that in most of the developing world NGO means some American organisation come to do them good. I think Category:Human rights organisations based in Bangladesh defines it quite adequately. What is added by saying it is non-governmental?Rathfelder (talk) 19:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Rathfelder I would argue that your impression is incorrect. A NGO( Non governmental organization) is a legal term in South Asia with laws specifically designed to regulate them. In Bangladesh NGO Affairs Bureau is charged with regulating activities. In Bangladesh like most countries, most of the NGOs are like this one are locally operated and based. This category means this organization not only is an NGO but the laws governing NGOs apply to it. Take BRAC which is an NGO that engages in microfinance and not Human Rights. While Centre for Law and Mediation is an NGO but only deals with legal aid. Both are NGOs but both are not human rights organization.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 19:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Do the laws relating to Non governmental organizations not apply to all organisations not run by the government? If not, how do we know which organisations they apply to?Rathfelder (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I think we need an article about the NGO bureau. But I am sure that the legal situation will be different in each country. We cannot assume that what is the case in the USA or Bangladesh is the same in other countries.Rathfelder (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

"NGO" is a jargon term that cannot be understood by the words "non-governmental". It is not a popular term in the USA - here the term "non-profit" is used instead. Internationally organizations like the United Nations use the term NGO. A common definition is that it is the sector of organizations not managed by government or business. Wikipedia routinely reports whether organizations are governmental, commercial, or civic. Having just "human rights organizations" does not give that information, because such organizations are often governmental or might be commercial legal groups.

There is the article on NGO defining the concept. I could also show Wikipedia or Wikidata notation systems about organization types. Any civic group with a bank account that is not a business and not the government is probably an NGO, because if they have a bank account but are not an NGO, then they have to pay tax on whatever money they get. Does that respond to your concerns? Should I link to more information or say more? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:48, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

If it is asserted that NGO is a legal term in a particular country, then I think we need to show that all organisations in that category meet the legal definition. But I haven't found any such definition. Its true that the UN uses the term extensively, but as far as I can see it is not defining, nor defined, so we should use it sparingly. The NGO article makes it very clear that there is no formal definition in most countries. It's a label and for some organisations it is reasonably defining - generally independent, non-commercial organisations based in rich countries trying to do good in poor countries. It's also true that it overlaps with the category Not-for-profit. But the term NGO seems to be extensively used in the USA -see Category:Non-governmental organizations based in the United States. The term "Civic group" is likewise not defined. My local cricket club could be described as an NGO, a not for profit organisation, or a civic group. But calling it a cricket club is much more defining. I've read at least a hundred wikipedia articles about "human rights organizations" and only one appeared to governmental and none appeared to be commercial. I think NGO is a category we should use less. It's much more helpful to categorise organisations of this sort according to what exactly they are trying to do. Rathfelder (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

I am assuming your cricket club is not in Bangladesh, is not registered with NGO Bureau and does not identify itself as such. This organization is registered under NGO affairs bureau and is recognized as an NGO in Bangladesh. Weather the organizations falls under the category has to be cited in their individual articles. Non-governmental organizations based in Washington, D.C. is a category on this. National Human Rights Commission of India and National Human Rights Commission of Bangladesh are public bodies, but what does that have to do with anything? The question is if this category is necessary and is it useful? To both the questions I would answer yes. In some countries it has no formal definition and in other countries it does. It provides a legal status to the organization. We could add both Human rights organization and NGO category. Since it is defined in some countries and not others we should apply the category to organizations where the term NGO has a legal definition. Also not doing so because in some county it is not defined would appear to be ethnocentrism.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

If being an NGO is legally regulated in Bangladesh I am entirely happy with the use of the category. My objection to it is vagueness. In most countries, as far as I am aware, there is no regulation, and anything can claim to be an NGO. Your reference mentions the Foreign Donation Regulation Ordinance, 1978. Does that mean that being an NGO implies that the organisation gets foreign donations? Has the Foreign Donations (Voluntary Activities) Regulation Act, 2014 been adopted? Can someone write an article about the regulation of NGOs in Bangladesh?Rathfelder (talk) 11:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

This is extremely difficult for the ordinary wikipedian with on-the-ground knowledge to cope with. There may be a legal definition in Bangladesh, but that doesn't mean that it is easy to translate into a list of NGOs for Bangladesh. For example, the evidence for many international organizations such as the The Fred Hollows Foundation is a list of the countries in which they work, such as this list. Is that organization defined as an NGO in those countries (if such a definition exists)? Who would know? Do we have to accept contributions from only such people as might be considered "too close to the subject" because only they would be able to navigate the legal underpinnings of the organization? A bit of give-and-take rather than deletionism seems necessary. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a deletionist. I just think NGO has been an overused category, and for most of the articles put there there are more defining categories available. I'm pleased to learn that in some places there is a legal definition, because I think its entirely legitimate in that case to try to list the organisations that are NGOs, and by implication exclude those which aren't.Rathfelder (talk) 20:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)