Talk:Christmas in Nazi Germany

Who is Rita Breuer?

I'm disappointed (but not surprised) in the quality of the sources used for this article. Even the Telegraph, which usually does a good job in its reporting, fails miserably here. Who, exactly, is Rita Breuer? And what qualifies her or her daughter to make such statements?

• "The most important celebration in the calendar did not match their racist credo, so they had to push out the Christian elements."
• "The most popular Christian festival of the year did not fit in with their racist ideology. They had to react and they did so by trying to make it less Christian."
• "Either it was the six-pointed star of David, which was Jewish, or it was the five-pointed star of the Bolshevik Soviet Union. And both of them were anathema to the regime."

The Breuers' claim to expertise is apparently their being ardent flea-market bargain-hunters. Are there no actual historians who have written on this subject? I'd like to think real experts wouldn't say things like:

• "It [the Nazi version of Christmas] drew on pagan traditions and tried to squeeze religion out."

--Aryaman (talk) 15:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

According to this article from Spiegel, Breuer has collected arange of Nazi-related Christmas objects over the past 30 years. Her collection is currently on display in the National Socialism Documentation Center in Cologne, in an exhibition called "Not Such a Holy Night: Christmas in Political Propaganda". The article can be read here. ISD (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I gathered that much from the other articles. Frau Breuer collected stuff. And now she is qualified to make highly speculative statements about what motivated the Nazis? Again, I'm disappointed (especially in Der Spiegel) for not digging up better sources than this. Many of these associations (e.g. the hypothetical link between Saint Nick and Odin/Thor) were made long before the Nazis came to power, and have been discussed not only by duly qualified historians and cultural anthropologists, but were common fare in popular literature a generation prior to the rise of the Nazis. It's painfully obvious that Frau Breuer is simply speculating about the circumstances which led to the creation and proliferation of the objects she has collected, and as long as she presents the Nazis as nefarious destroyers of all things good and pure, no one is interested in digging any deeper. If Wikipedia is to have an article on this, I'd say we need to broaden our research base and get some real historians involved. Frau Breuer's collection/exhibition is of interest, but should be presented for what it is. --Aryaman (talk) 16:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

If you can find any better sources, then do. ISD (talk) 18:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Here are some to start with:

• Reagin, Nancy R. (2007). Sweeping the German Nation: Domesticity and National Identity in Germany, 1870-1945. New York: Cambridge University Press. (pp. 126-129)
• Sweers, Britta (2005) "The Power to Influence Minds: German Folk Music during the Nazi Era and After" in Randall, A. J. (Ed.) Music, Power and Politics. New York: Routledge. (pp.65-86)
• Beck, Earl R. (1986). Under the Bombs: The German Home Front. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky. (pp. 104-105)

I won't have much time to dig into this for a few weeks, but anyone is welcome to look these up on-line and make some additions/replacements to the article. --Aryaman (talk) 22:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I just discovered this article and discussion and I want to inform you, that I found some more sources. Unfortunately, cause I am writing from Germany, they are all written in German language and I have not read this publications yet.

• Breuer, Judith / Breuer, Rita (2000): Von wegen Heilige Nacht!: das Weihnachtsfest in der politischen Propaganda. [Title can be translated roughly as "Not at all a Holy Night! Christmas holiday in political propaganda"].Mülheim an der Ruhr, Verlag an der Ruhr. ISBN 3-86072-572-6.(more bibliographic information, short review, in German language, PDF in the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) This book (little preview) gives a broader and more systematic access towards the topic than the current exhibition in Cologne. Its true, Rita Breuer is a mere housewive, collecting things together with her sister Judith Breuer, who has obtained a doctorate of pharmacy. So they really are amateurs, not historians. According to this German newspaper article and another one both exhibition and the book were developed with advice by professional historians.
• Foitzik, Doris (1987): Weihnachten im Nationalsozialismus: nationalsozialistische Lenkungsmaßnahmen am Beispiel eines Familienfestes [Title can be translated roughly as "Christmas during Nazi era: nationalsocialist steering measures shown by the example of a family reunion"], Universität Hamburg, Magister-Schrift (more bibliographic information). The publication was Doris Foitziks Master of Arts thesis in social/cultural anthropology at Hamburg University in 1987. It has been published a year later, but only as a private publication: Weihnachten im Nationalsozialismus. Lenkungsmaßnahmen am Beispiel eines Familienfestes, in: Hamburger Festschriftgruppe (Ed.): Festschrift für Gabriele Montaldi, Selbstverlag, Hamburg 1988, pp. 58-88. See also from the same author: [1] (in German language)
• Gajek, Esther (1997): Nationalsozialistische Weihnacht. Die Ideologisierung eines Familienfestes durch Volkskundler [Title can be translated roughly as "Nazi Christmas. How social anthropologists/cultural anthropologists ideologized a family reunion"], in: Faber, Richard / Gajek, Esther (Editors): Politische Weihnacht in Antike und Moderne. Zur ideologischen Durchdringung des Fests der Feste, Wuerzburg, Verlag Königshausen & Neumann, ISBN 3-8260-1351-4, pp. 183-215.(more bibliographic information). Gajek achieved a Master of Arts in social anthropology/cultural anthropology and currently has a teaching position in comparative cultural studies at the University of Regensburg.[2]

Peacefull Christmas greetings to you all from Germany. I'm sorry about my bad English, I hope you can understand it nevertheless ;-) --93.216.224.85 (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

After looking at this for a bit, I'm wondering if it should be merged with Christmas, particularly in the History section, after Reformation into the 19th century. Comments? --Aryaman (talk) 17:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I think theres enough for a standalone here. It certaintly could be mentioned if its not already in the christmas article. Any other thoughts out there? Ottawa4ever (talk) 12:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The Christmas article is long enough without putting details on every Christmas movement during periods of indvidual country's histories. 173.72.41.134 (talk) 16:01, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason to merge this with Christmas. This is an example of an odd Christmas celebration and is not part of the whole Christmas tradition. --Dincher (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Why?

Can anyone explain why the nazi's, who were mainly christian and were led by a christian dictator, would make such an effort to remove christianity from christmas? Amphicoelias (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality?

Is this written from a neutral point of view? It reads like someone with an ax to grind.--41.150.241.13 (talk) 00:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not written from a neutral point of view. Also, most sources used aren't citing historians and are using sensationalist news stories. 2601:982:8202:CDA0:94D8:B192:D8D3:9F86 (talk) 23:02, 20 July 2022 (UTC)