Talk:Cleopatra/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 17:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Iazyges: hi again! Thanks once again for deciding to review this and other Cleopatra-related articles. I'd really like to get this show on the road, though. Do you think you'll be able to review this article very soon? By the end of the week? Even tomorrow, perhaps? I'm eager to nominate it for FA status and later have a "Good Article Topic" for Cleopatra-related articles. I need your help, though, to get there. Please! :) Regards, --Pericles of Athens^Talk 09:33, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I’ll do my best to have it done by the end of the week at latest. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 12:03, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y (Highest is 35.9%, due to unavoidable parallels) 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y
• No missing citations Y

Prose Suggestions

Please note that all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion.

General

• In the "Medieval and Early Modern reception" section, I think the link to List of cultural depictions of Cleopatra is not needed as it has been already given during the Cultural Depictions section.
• You have a lot of areas where page ranges use a hyphen (-) instead on an en-dash (–), however given the scope of the article, I'd suggest you make a request for someone with AWB to fix it, as it would take a huge amount of time otherwise.

Pericles' response

@Iazyges: hi again! I have removed the additional "list of cultural depictions of Cleopatra" link as requested. I have also contacted User talk: Tom.Reding, a user with AWB privileges, and requested that he apply the fixes that you've suggested here. I also notified him about the other pages you are reviewing: Early life of Cleopatra VII, Reign of Cleopatra VII, and Death of Cleopatra. Hopefully he will get back to me soon. Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Tom.Reding has completed the task of fixing all the hyphens in this article and the others! Are there any more outstanding issues? Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:41, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Lede

• After the death of Cleopatra, Egypt became a province of the newly-established Roman Empire, marking the end of the Hellenistic period that had lasted since the reign of Alexander. Earlier it said Caesarion briefly succeeded her. This seems to say that under Caesarion's brief rule, Egypt became a part of the Roman Empire. Is this true?
  • • @Iazyges: good point! I have now clarified in the lead that Caesarion was only alive for eighteen days after Cleopatra. He was on the run, trying to flee the country, so he was more a ruler in absentia than anything else, which is why the lead says Cleopatra was the last active ruler of Ptolemaic Egypt. Caesarion was quickly executed by orders of Octavian, as the article explains in further detail. The lead section is not the place for such a wordy description, though. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• The latter was killed in 55 BC when Ptolemy XII returned to Egypt with Roman military aid. Did the Romans send soldiers or just weapons? If soldiers, I'd suggest changing aid to assistance, as it reads like the Romans supplied weapons but were not actively involved.
  • • Great suggestion! I have changed "aid" to "assistance" here. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• Cleopatra that produced a son, Caesarion (i.e. Ptolemy XV) recommend changing i.e. to or/aka, given that (in example Ptolemy XV) makes little sense.
  • • You're wrong. You are confusing e.g., a Latin abbreviation for exempli gratia, with i.e., in Latin id est. Exempli gratia means "for example" whereas id est means "that is" or "in other words". Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• the cause of death reportedly by use of poison. The popular belief is that she was bitten by an asp. suggest reportedy by use of poison, in popular legend she was bitten by an asp.
  • • Your suggestion doesn't fit well with the structure of the entire sentence, though. And it's not entirely a legend, since the story of the asp was also featured and accepted by several ancient Roman historians. It's a competing theory with the others, even if it's more dramatic and not as convincing as simple poisoning with a needle, ointment, or drink. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Biography

• from the multicultural and largely-Greek city of Alexandria established by Alexander the Great of Macedon, refusing to learn the native Egyptian language. suggest from the multicultural and largely-Greek city of Alexandria, which had been established by Alexander the Great of Macedon, and refused to learn the native Egyptian language.
  • • I'm sorry, but this actually makes it wordier than it already is. We're trying to make it less verbose, please. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• In 65 BC the Roman censor Marcus Licinius Crassus argued before the Roman Senate that Ptolemaic Egypt should be annexed, but his proposed bill and that of tribune Servilius Rullus in 63 BC were rejected. suggest In 65 BC the Roman censor Marcus Licinius Crassus argued before the Roman Senate that Rome should annex Ptolemaic Egypt but his proposed bill, and the later bill of tribune Servilius Rullus in 63 BC, was rejected.
  • • Good suggestion! Just in case it wasn't clear to the reader, I have reworded this part according to your suggestion. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• By 29 August 51 BC official documents started listing Cleopatra as the sole ruler, evidence that she had rejected her brother Ptolemy XIII as a co-ruler. suggest By 29 August 51 BC official documents began to list Cleopatra as the sole ruler, which is seen as evidence that she had by this point rejected her brother Ptolemy XIII as a co-ruler.
  • • Again, I fail to see how this makes things better, since your suggestion makes it wordier than it needs to be. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• He left three legions in Egypt, later increased to four, under the command of the freedman Rufio, to secure Cleopatra's tenuous position but also perhaps to keep her activities in check. suggest He left three legions in Egypt, and later added another one, under the command of the freedman Rufio, in order to secure Cleopatra's tenuous position, and possibly also to keep her activities in check.
  • • Hmm...I'm not sure I like this. No offense, but I think my version reads considerably smoother than yours. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
• preserved an account that Cleopatra once dissolved a pearl worth 2.5 million drachmas in vinegar just to prove a dinner party bet believe prove should be win.
  • • Not a bad suggestion... To be honest, "prove" is still acceptable here, but "win" is perhaps clearer to the reader, especially those who are not native speakers of English. I have thus changed it according to your suggestion. Regards, Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:15, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
      • @PericlesofAthens: Alright, everything looks good. I’ll pass the article as soon as I get home. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:17, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

@Iazyges: excellent! Thank you so much for reviewing the article. I'm sorry to burden you with the other three. If it's too much of an overwhelming workload for you, feel free to speak out and hand it off to someone else at any time. If not, I look forward to your reviews of Early life of Cleopatra VII, Reign of Cleopatra VII, and Death of Cleopatra. Warm regards, Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:25, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

It is no trouble at all. I always enjoy reviewing your articles. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:26, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

@Iazyges: that is good to hear. Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:10, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Non-reviewer comment

The lead section for this article is tremendously long. I generally have leads that are fairly long myself and my idea of an "optimum length" is much longer than for some other users, but this article's lead is rather extreme to say the least. I understand that Cleopatra is obviously a very important historical figure and the lead needs to summarize a lot of information, but, right now, the lead is longer than the one for the article Middle Ages, which covers an entire period of western history spanning roughly a full millennium. Something a little closer to the length of the leads for Aristotle, Pythagoras, or Origen might be more reasonable. --Katolophyromai (talk) 05:09, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

@Katolophyromai: thank you for offering your advice! As you might have seen in the talk page discussion, the lead was actually even larger than it is now! Believe it or not, I've already cut out a lot of information, but I'm still pondering how to do that without disrupting the narrative flow of the two middle paragraphs. I'm still working on it, however, so expect to see a shorter, more digestible lead in the very near future. I have been caught up working on other Cleopatra-related articles, like Death of Cleopatra, so that I haven't been able to give this issue my full and undivided attention. I will try to do so now that you've raised the issue once more, a chief concern of editors on the talk page reviewing my work. Warm regards, Pericles of Athens^Talk 05:23, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

@Katolophyromai: just to let you know, I have taken your advice and edited the lead section, removing entire sentences and shortening others to the best of my abilities. Please let me know if you find the current length to be more suitable, or if you think the size of it should be reduced even further. I haven't counted the characters for each of them, but I'd say it's now roughly the size of the lead for Origen as you cited above. Pericles of Athens^Talk 05:35, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

In fact, it is now just a bit longer than the lead sections of biopic articles such as Leonardo da Vinci and George Washington. Pericles of Athens^Talk 07:05, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

It might help to trim the lead to what sources agree on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:12, 21 April 2018 (UTC)