Talk:Cleveland Indians name and logo controversy

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The original Chief Wahoo article was ~225,000 bytes, now about 53,000. I would like to get this new article down under 100k.FriendlyFred (talk) 03:48, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

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Historical record

For the record, here are the contemporary news reports on the origin of the name.

From the Sporting Life "They're Indians Now" dated March 22, 1897:

There is no feature of the signing of Sockalexis more gratifying than the fact that his presence on the team will result in relegating to obscurity the title of "Spiders," by which the team has been handicapped for several season, to give place to the more significant name "Indians."

"Base Ball Nicknames" Evening Star October 21, 1898

The Cleveland team was for years dubbed all over the base ball map as the "Spiders" on account of the unusual number of long and lean players on the team. Jay Faatz and other elongated players were members of the team then, and the sobriquet was well given. When "Fire Water" Sockalexis left Holy Cross College, where he had made fame as a base ball player and signed with Tebeau, the Cleveland scribes dubbed their team the "Indians."

From The Plain Dealer article "Baseball writers select 'Indians' as the best name to apply to the former Naps" dated January 17, 1915:

With the going of Nap Lajoie to the Athletics, a new name had to be selected for the Cleveland American league club. President Somers invited the Cleveland baseball writers to make the selection. The title of Indians was their choice, it having been one of the names applied to the old National league club of Cleveland many years ago.

The nickname, however, is but temporarily bestowed, as the club may so conduct itself during the present season as to earn some other cognomen which may be more appropriate. The choice of a name that would be significant just now was rather difficult with the club itself anchored in last place.

While picking a name for the Cleveland A. L. team, the committee also agreed that the Cleveland A. A. team owned too many names, and that while they were at it, it might be well to agree on just one name for the erstwhile Bearcats. Consequently, the other old nickname of the Cleveland National leaguers was adopted and henceforth all the local papers will call the A. A. club the Spiders.

So there you are—Indians and Spiders.

"Cleveland Nine Indians Now" New York Times January 17, 1915

CLEVELAND, O., Jan. 16—The Cleveland American League baseball team will hereafter be known as the "Indians," it was decided this afternoon at a meeting of club officials and baseball writers. The name "Naps" became obsolete when Napoleon Lajoie went to the Philadelphia Athletics. It was also decided at the meeting to agree on "Spiders" as a name for the Cleveland American Association team.

"The Naps Are Dead; Call Them Indians Hereafter" Boston Daily Globe January 17, 1915

"The Naps are dead! Long live the Indians!" The Cleveland American League baseball club will in the future be known as the "Indians." The team was given its new nickname by a committee of local sporting writers at a meeting this afternoon. The name is a good one, in that it recalls the old fighting days of the early American League period, when the Cleveland players of those days were often referred to as the "Indians" in other cities of the circuit.

From The Plain Dealer article "Looking Backwards" dated January 18, 1915:

Many years ago there was an Indian named Sockalexis who was the star player of the Cleveland baseball club. As a batter, fielder and base runner he was a marvel. Sockalexis so far outshone his teammates that he naturally came to be regarded as the whole team. The "fans" throughout the country began to call the Clevelanders the "Indians." It was an honorable name, and while it stuck the team made an excellent record. It has now been decided to revive this name. The Clevelands of 1915 will be the "Indians." There will be no real red Indians on the roster, but the name will recall fine traditions. It is looking backward to a time when Cleveland had one of the most popular teams of the United States. It also serves to revive the memory of a single great player who has been gathered to his fathers in the happy hunting grounds of the Abenakis.

Bang, Ed. "New Name For Team" Sporting Life January 23, 1915 p.6

With Lajoie going to the Athletics, it devolved upon the sporting editors of the four Cleveland papers to get together and decide on a new nickname for the team, as "Naps" became obsolete immediately Larry was disposed of to another team. The Cleveland sporting editors wrestled for a long time with various nicknames, including "Blues," "Grays," "Bucks," "Buckeyes," "Eries," "Euclids," "Raiders," and finally agreed on "Indians." In the early days of the American League the Cleveland team was known as the "Blues" in some cities, and the "Indians" in others. The newspaper contingent decided that "Indians" would be far more appropriate than "Blues," and thus Birmy's 1915 outfit will be known as "Indians," instead of "Naps."

Regarding the claim that the name was inspired by the Boston Braves, that was only the inspiration for the Indians wearing an Indian head on their uniform. From The Plain Dealer article "Indians to follow example of Braves" dated February 28, 1915:

Following the example of the Boston Braves, the management of the Cleveland Indians intends to have an Indian head on the left sleeve of each of the suits of the Cleveland American league club players. In this way, the officials hope to keep the Indians reminded of what the Braves did last year, jumping from last place to first.

Piriczki (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The section needs to be re-written to make it clear that the secondary sources (Pluto, Staurowsky) discuss the primary sources such as the Plain Dealer articles, and discount them as being historically accurate. Stating that the primary sources cast doubt on the secondary, academic sources is contrary to the guidelines on reliable sources.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Pluto elaborated further on the matter, that by choosing "Indians" the management was hoping to inspire the team by referencing the Braves. As you can see in List of Cleveland Indians seasons, the team had a dreadful 1914, going 51-102, the worst record so far in their young history. 1915 wouldn't be much better, but they started turning things around after that and won the 1920 World Series. (A turnaround not unlike that of the recent Houston Astros.) With their great star Nap Lajoie having been released to the A's on January 5, 1915, a new nickname was needed - especially as people had started talking about the team "napping". The owner and the writers had a meeting on January 16, and announced the new name the following week. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:30, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Terry Pluto might be a good beat writer but his knowledge of history is questionable. He actually thinks Cleveland Stadium "was a Works Progress Administration project designed to bring the 1932 Olympics to Cleveland." Both claims (WPA and Olympics) are completely false. Piriczki (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The widely-circulated story about the Stadium being built to try to attract the 1932 Olympics is obviously incorrect. As is the notion the WPA had anything to do with building it, as it was finished during the Herbert Hoover administration. It's unclear whether Pluto found some information or was merely reading too much into the fairly obvious "inspiration" that Somers intended for his newly-dubbed Indians. A side note: The newspaper references to the AA team seemed a little strange. It turns out that the Toledo franchise had been temporarily parked in Cleveland during 1914-1915.[1] This was done to head off any attempt by the Federal League to put a franchise in Cleveland. After the FL folded, the minor league team moved back to Toledo. That detail seems to be missing from the history in the Mud Hens article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I am no longer convinced that the evidence is strong enough to say that the primary reason for "Indians" was the 1914 Braves. I would be inclined to indicate that the Braves' success was an influence, especially for the Indian-head patch. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

People from India vs. American Indians

There was an addition of content regarding possible confusion in the meaning of ethnic "Indians", but without any source reference. I have restored the original content since there is no indication that such confusion is not really an issue with regard to this article.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 01:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Reverted additional edits by an anonymous editor.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 15:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Good removal. That looked like some fairly wild "original research". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:04, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Removal of entire subsection

I removed "Allegations of phase-out" section as "old news" now that Wahoo has indeed been phased out. Perhaps something could be said, but I cannot think of anything that would not be WP:synth, since the media has continued to notice the team's de-emphasis of Wahoo for a decade while management continued to deny that it was doing so. Merely placing the sources side-by-side would imply a conclusion that none of the sources actually say.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 23:43, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Post-Wahoo re-write needed

This article was always lengthy and the departure of Chief Wahoo makes a revision necessary, so the removal of outdated details could be done at the same time.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Completed general reorganization and simplification, including removal of content that has not proved significant over time, and some of the references to the national controversy that can be found in linked articles.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Individual sections need to be edited to reflect the passage of time, including dating events and consistent chronological order.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 01:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Chief Wahoo (mascot character).svg

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-- Marchjuly (talk) 08:49, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

I have added the rationale, essentially duplicating the one for the article Chief Wahoo. I created this article by splitting from that article, and did not think of adding a rationale at the time.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 15:44, 19 October 2019 (UTC)