Talk:Cleveland School fire

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 14:13, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

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• ... that the Cleveland School fire was the deadliest fire in South Carolina history? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6

Created by Scorpions13256 (talk). Self-nominated at 05:45, 2 October 2020 (UTC).

No QPQ needed.

• New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits.
• I question how you can pull an image off some site and declare it public domain because it was taken before 1924. Where is this image really from? If you'd like to check on copyright issues, you could ask our helpful advisor GRuban.
• DYK generally frowns on stacking all the citations at the end of each paragraph. It makes it impossible to verify hook facts. Also, you don't need all those uncontroversial cites in the lead at all. However, you do need an inline cite for your hook fact. Personally, I find the hook too brief; I wish it had one more detail or fact in it other than it being the worst to give it a little more flavor. Yoninah (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there are any issues with copyright because I asked about it on Wikimedia Commons, and they told me it was okay. Nonetheless, I will ask the person you recommended that I talk to just to be sure. I will also try addressing the hook and referencing issues in a few hours when I finish my schoolwork. Thank you for your time. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I see the URL contains both "townnews.com" and "postandcourier.com". Is it from a US newspaper? See, the key point is that if it was published before 1925, then it's public domain. (See Public domain in the United States.) Can you give a bit more detail about the image than just https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/postandcourier.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/f8/9f88fa33-fb8e-511d-beb2-8eacbd0cbb46/5e9e0f7a94f1c.image.png? Ideally not to me as much as on the image page. --GRuban (talk) 23:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know exactly where it came from because it appeared on so many different sites. I likely got the image from either scfirefighters.org or postandcourier.com, but I am not 100% sure. I'll try phoning the newspaper you brought up. I almost cited the "postandcourier.com" article, but I didn't because it was an opinion piece. Scorpions13256 (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• ALT1: ... that the Cleveland School fire, South Carolina's deadliest fire, took place during a play called topsy turvey? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6

• ALT2: ... that the Cleveland School fire, South Carolina's deadliest fire, led to the implementation of many modern fire codes in the United States? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6

Bad news about the image. I searched for some time, hoping to find it in a 1923 newspaper, but couldn't. Instead, I found it at much better resolution here, with explanation. https://digital.tcl.sc.edu/digital/collection/scpcexhibit/id/129 It's a personal image from the collection of John C. West, who donated it to a university, so may well have not been published until only a few years ago. So you could write to the university, and ask if it was published before they got it, or if they would release it into the public domain or under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/. Even if they don't, you can definitely use it under WP:FAIR, since the school burned down 100 years ago, so there may well be no other image of it on earth; but we couldn't put it on our front page in the DYK section. Meanwhile, there is some good news (in terms of the article; in absolute terms, tragic news, of course): if you read the page I linked, the image is apparently from the mother of John C. West, who later became governor of South Carolina, which is why we have an article on him; she was a teacher there and the fire took the life of his father - that may well be worth a sentence or two in the article! It's already in our John C. West article, but should be linked from there to your article. I'll let you have the honor.--GRuban (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually, do write, and ask carefully. Because if you look at https://imree.tcl.sc.edu/exhibits/scpc/John_C._West.pdf that implies that picture may have been published in J. O. Moseley, The Terrible Cleveland Fire, Charleston, S.C.: Southern Printing and Publishing Co., 1923. I can't find that book on Google Books, so can't check. But https://www.worldcat.org/title/terrible-cleveland-fire-its-victims-and-survivors/oclc/6941501 says it does have some photograph plates. So if it was published there, then it is public domain after all! Do ask. Or ask a library that holds the book. --GRuban (talk) 13:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your work. There is a copy of the book at the University of South Carolina. I'll phone them today. Scorpions13256 (talk) 14:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Gruban, I emailed the university of South Carolina, and I spoke to a librarian. The photo was in fact published in that book in 1923, meaning that it is public domain. They agreed to provide an HD scan from the book so that I could use it in this article. I plan on deleting the current picture. They said that they would also provide the appropriate language to attribute the scan to them. Scorpions13256 (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

That is Wonderful! If you like, you can use the somewhat higher resolution image from https://digital.tcl.sc.edu/digital/collection/scpcexhibit/id/129 until they get that one to you. Write on that image page that the image was published in (details of that book) in 1923, use https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-US-expired and Bob's your uncle. --GRuban (talk) 18:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

In the meantime, what do you think of my new hook and reference formatting? Is it satisfactory now? This is my first DYK. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm reviewing the hooks. I think ALT1 is better, but the name of the play is being spelled differently here than in the article. You also need to add an inline cite in the article (right after the sentence in which the name of the play appears). Yoninah (talk) 19:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Done. However, there does appear to be a conflict between the sources though. I'm unsure how to proceed from here. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• Well, if your sources conflict, you need to choose the ones that are most reliable or verified by other sources. Often there will be typos in a source, but other sources together can confirm the fact. Yoninah (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• Actually, I was only talking about the information in the first hook. There is no contradiction for the rest of the information in the article. For that reason, I think that hook 2 would be better. What do you think? I could reword it to say that schools have monthly fire drills because of the disaster. Scorpions13256 (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• Well then, I think you're going to get a lot more clicks if you say how many children died (inline cite please), the bodies couldn't be identified and they were buried in a mass grave. Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• ALT3: ... that after the Cleveland School fire, most of the deceased could not be identified and were buried in a mass grave? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6
• ALT4: ... that after the Cleveland School fire, South Carolina's deadliest fire, most of the deceased could not be identified? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6
• ALT5: ... that after the Cleveland School fire, South Carolina's deadliest fire, most of the deceased could not be identified and were buried in a mass grave? Source: https://www.wltx.com/article/features/seagrave-the-fire-truck-that-witnessed-history/101-43489020-588f-4189-b2a4-f06e14395db6

I hope one of these three hooks is good enough. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid these are not what I mean by "hooky". They sound like a news item, not something that will "reel in" readers to click on the article and learn more. Let's go back to ALT2. The only problem with that is that the source is not talking about many modern fire codes in the United States—you added that. The source seems to be a Cleveland local news article, perhaps referring to Cleveland schools but not expressly saying so. Your article would be better served by citing book sources that deal with the subject in a more scholarly way. BTW I am going offline shortly for a couple of days. Yoninah (talk) 22:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you say that because the article says that The fire was instrumental in creating the modern fire codes we have today.. If I understood you correctly, maybe I could reword the article to better reflect what the source actually says? You're right that I should have included more scholarly sources. I didn't have access to a lot of scholarly sources at the time. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:33, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the article needs to follow the source. If it's not in the source, it shouldn't be in the article. I do all my research on Google and Google Books. Yoninah (talk) 22:36, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I thought that the information I included was in the source. The thing I was quoting was from the newspaper article, not the Wikipedia article. The same newspaper article also says that these codes were all because of the Cleveland School fire. I would never include something in an article without first citing it. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:42, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

The source says: The fire was instrumental in creating the modern fire codes we have today. Where is it talking about exactly? The U.S.? The world? On a close reading, it seems to be talking about Camden. Such a general statement, from a local news outlet at that, really needs to be backed up by a more reliable source before being included in your article. Yoninah (talk) 22:49, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh. I get you now. Everything you said makes sense. I'll see what reliable sources I can find. Sorry if I'm taking up too much of your time. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

No, you're fine. I know what I mean in the beginning, but sometimes it takes me time to express it clearly. Yoninah (talk) 23:24, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• ALT6: ... that the Cleveland School fire took place the day the school was to permanently close. Source: https://www.newspapers.com/image/670468071/ https://www.newspapers.com/image/93197965/

Okay, I provided two sources just to be safe. I'm putting one of the references in the article right now. I'll use the WITX source instead if it's acceptable though. Scorpions13256 (talk) 02:20, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• OK, here's what I suggest. First add a little more oomph to the hook with your original statement. What do you think about:
• ALT6a: ... that the Cleveland School fire, the deadliest in South Carolina history, took place on the day the school was to close for good?
• Second, please deal with the image. Replace it with the higher resolution image as GRuban suggested above.
• Third, I cannot believe that this one fire led to all those safety measures. As I said above, this is a local news source. If you cannot provide a more reliable reference for this information, I suggest removing it. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Scorpions13256: I tweaked ALT6a based on what you say in the article. Is that what it says in the sources? And what are those two newspaper sources doing on this template? Do you want to add them to the article? And if they are Newspapers.com sources, please clip them and post them per the open access policy. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 18:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• Corrected my mistake with the hook. But please make the Newspapers.com sources visible. Yoninah (talk) 18:48, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• I promise you I'll do that. I also uploaded the picture that USC provided to me. I hope I labeled it correctly. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:08, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• I think you need to edit the image upload form based on what GRuban told you above. Yoninah (talk) 19:10, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

• I'm just working on linking the permission document. Scorpions13256 (talk) 01:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Everything except the stamp removal of the new picture is done. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:00, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Scorpions13256: Great! Let me know when you're ready to continue the review. Yoninah (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: I'm ready. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
• @Yoninah: Trying the ping again. Scorpions13256 (talk) 18:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Scorpions13256: Hi, I saw your first ping, but I've been busy IRL. Hope to get to this shortly. Yoninah (talk) 17:08, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Scorpions13256: Congratulations on sorting out the image licensing! I think the image is too light to feature well at thumbnail size, so the hook will have to reel in the readers. Do you want to run with ALT6a?
• ALT6a: ... that the Cleveland School fire, the deadliest in South Carolina history, took place on the day the school was to close for good? Yoninah (talk) 18:35, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Sounds good to me. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

• OK, since I just combined hook facts that you proposed in previous hooks, I'm going ahead and approving ALT6a. ALT6a hook facts verified and cited inline. Good to go. Congratulations. Yoninah (talk) 19:27, 24 October 2020 (UTC)