Talk:Competition climbing

Move this to "Competition climbing"

This should be re-named as "Competition climbing", as per Sport climbing, Traditional climbing, Aid climbing etc. It is now a major *type* of climbing (and in teh Olympics), and should be re-named accordingly (it even includes the large sub-genre of Speed climbing). 78.18.249.143 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This is not about the type of climbing, but about the type of competition, so I would disagree with your assessment. Primefac (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

No, this is competition climbing (ie done by professional climbers). “Climbing competitions” is a different much broader article. Somebody had fixed this article nicely but it has been re titled back to the wrong title!!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.187.2.215 (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

See As a way to prepare the athletes, the International Sport Climbing Federation (IFSC)—the global governing body for competition climbing—began including a combined discipline (as its own entity) in climbing’s 2018 World Championships. The discipline for professionals (IFSC, olympics, once offs) is generally known as competition climbing. That is what this article is about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.187.2.215 (talk) 17:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

The move was at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Climbing#Move Climbing competition to "Competition climbing" for over two months with no objections. This article is about "Competition climbing" (also known as "Competitive climbing", to a lesser extent). It is not about "Climbing competitions" which is a broader topic that covers non-professional climbing. Can this article be renamed back to "Competition climbing"? 78.19.88.172 (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:SPA That is not the proper process. Requested moves are done on the Talk page of the article, with only a pointer to that discussion from the Talk page of a Project. This requested move had an objection. This article is about climbing competitions, a broader topic of which "competition climbing" is a smaller part. Moreover, the regulatory body has changed its name from "competition climbing" to "sport climbing", again to reach a larger audience.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:39, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

@William Allen Simpson: — you have gotten the wrong end of the stick here and are making unhelpful edits (and I am not sure how the name gets fixed). You can log on to the International Federation of Sport Climbing website here and click on their "IFSC Rules 2023 1.0" document, where the very first Clause 1.1 (on page 13) states:

1.1 The International Federation of Sport Climbing (IFSC) is the international federation responsible for all aspects of international competition climbing and is the final authority for all matters concerning international competition climbing.

There are many other uses of the term "competition climbing" in this IFSC rules document that clarifies what the correct terminology is.

Equally important, there are climbers that are listed in this article as notable "competition climbers" who almost exclusively spend all their time on this (i.e. they almost never appear in outdoor non-competitive climbing), and they are "competition climbers".

This topic area is an important "growth" area in Wikipedia climbing, and it is important that we get the terms right, and not cause confusion to readers. It is littered with inaccurate and bad/lax terminology. At a later stage, I am sure that someone will write a different article on "climbing competitions", but that is a much broader and a different topic-area to "competition climbing" (which is almost all professional, and with very similar rules for the main events). 78.18.245.165 (talk) 16:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

See the British Mountaineering Council, one of the most important bodies in climbing governance and regulation (and the IFSC's governing body for the UK), writing their own 2021 "article" on A brief history of competition climbing, which is exactly what this article is solely about, the sport of competition climbing. 78.18.245.165 (talk) 17:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

See Climbing, one of the main climbing magazines, writing in 2020 discussing the IFSC (and USA Climbing, the regulator for the US) here:

As a way to prepare the athletes, the International Sport Climbing Federation (IFSC)—the global governing body for competition climbing—began including a combined discipline (as its own entity) in climbing’s 2018 World Championships. Youth championships have also merged the events into a single collective discipline. And beginning in 2019, USA Climbing—the main governing body for competition climbing in the United States—started holding an annual Combined Invitational on par with its other national championships.

Again, the term is "competition climbing", the sole focus of this article. 78.18.245.165 (talk) 17:26, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

See Mountain Hardwear, one of the biggest manufacturers of gear with their own 2020 article on the topic: Competition climbing: everything you need to know. We can write a better topic article but we now look silly. 78.18.245.165 (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

• This is the broader article, contrary to the various Single-purpose accounts Wall of text above. I've recently discovered that the very first reference cited (Climber, 6 April 2021) has no mention of "competition climbing", so that has been removed. Should somebody make a narrowly focused article about Competition climbing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), it would probably be merged again into this broader article.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

No, this article is specifically about "competition climbing". You have been shown detailed high-quality referencing to support that (from the main "competition climbing" body and from the wider climbing media). Your "wall of text" argument (and your approach of ignoring all rational evidence and just re-reverting to your own ill-informed edit) shows is a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in a topic that you show little understanding of. Somebody may write a generic article on wider "climbing competitions" in the future, but this article, is (and has been for a long time, although in an unreferenced format) about the sport of "competition climbing". Pinging @Primefac: here to independently read the above (as we will need an administrator to fix the naming of this). 78.18.245.165 (talk) 08:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

And despite the quality of the evidence shown to you by me and others above - and timesink needed to help you - you have posted a VANDAL template to my talk page, notwithstanding the fact you have reverted to your meaningless version three times now? 78.18.245.165 (talk) 08:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I have started a formal discussion below about splitting this article to hopefully allow both groups to be happy. Primefac (talk) 11:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Main article for Category:Climbing competitions

After discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 28#Category:Sport climbing competitions, the main category was renamed to Category:Climbing competitions.

The related nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 28#Category:Sport climbers rejected a change to "Competition climbers".

Note that the parents are both Category:Sport climbing and Category:Rock climbing. All such climbing competitions of all ages should be covered here.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 23:11, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I have read these category discussions, and the only user with experience in climbing seems to have been overruled by two users with apparently no experience in climbing, and who (per my comments above) got the wrong end of the stick in specific areas (although they did get the first one right). Please listen to the people on this talk page who do understand climbing, and make considered/ consensus edits with this community (and not by non-climbing users with a small consensus). thank you. 78.18.245.165 (talk) 16:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Sport of rock climbing

@Jeff in CA:, I have reverted your edit that competition is the "sport of rock climbing". Rock climbing is in itself a sport? However if you needed to use other wording that avoids the implication that rock climbing is not a sport, that would be okay (you have made useful edits to this article previously). 78.18.245.165 (talk) 16:59, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

What you suggested I was trying to get to is indeed what I was trying to get to. Jeff in CA (talk) 10:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Split this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The IP(s) above are clearly very determined to have an article about "competition climbing", i.e. "the act of competing in a climbing discipline". However, I think there should be an article about "climbing competitions" i.e. "the event in which competitors show up and compete in a climbing discipline." I don't see why we can't have both? I was originally thinking this should be an move discussion but upon reading through the various arguments I am seeing more potential for a straight-up split. Thoughts and opinions are appreciated, but please focus on content and not about the conduct of other editors (and if you've made your point, please do not belabour it to your detriment. Primefac (talk) 11:24, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose — there are many kinds of climbing competition, and they include the 3 "competition climbing" styles, plus sport climbing, rock climbing, and mountaineering.

There are almost no mountaineering competitions (mountaineers despise the concept). Competition climbing is the competitive part of sport climbing. You don’t understand this subject area and are making nonsensical comments. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. Any split to "competition climbing" will simply be a regurgitation of one aspect of competition. It would be WP:OVERLAP, and merged back again.

Competition climbing is a subset of climbing competitions, but we don’t merge professional football into all football or formula one racing into motor sport. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. For example, we are currently discussing a charity mountaineering competition, Climb to Fight Breast Cancer, and whether it should be classified under mountaineering or climbing more generally.

Again, you have a poor understanding of this subject area and only you (and not wiki climbing) is discussing this. That article has no notability in climbing, and has questionable wiki notability. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. The WP:SPA IPs are living in the past. A very short lived relatively recent past.

I am very much alive and in the present. Wikipedia is driven by referencing, and you have ignored all the helpful referencing the IPs provided above that proves the case, and just made new arguments. Hence why they have left.31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. The main governing organization, International Federation of Sport Climbing, changed its name from "competition climbing" to "sport climbing" over 5 years ago.

As has been pointed out to you above, the IFSC explicitly call themselves, in their 2023 charter, the regulator of *competition climbing*. That is the subject of this article. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. The most recent Olympics was "Sport climbing", see Sport climbing at the 2020 Summer Olympics. The SPA reverts keep covering over the "sport climbing" part of the name.

That is why the sport climbing article includes a reference to the dual naming, which I can see you deleted ??? The more I read into this, the crazier I find this situation. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so we don't record the speculative name(s) of future events.

We cover what the main sources call something, and per the references above, the IFSC (and BMC, and most climbing media), call it competition climbing. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• 1. Refering to all competitive climbers as "Notable competition climbers", then separating out "non-competition climbers" as a subsection with smaller type, is insulting to those climbers. If anything, it is the other way around. Climbing competitors do not all agree. There is controversy.

There are competition climbers who have never appeared on normal rock, and competition climbers who are also some of the worlds best outdoor climbers and boulderers. It is not an exclusive category - it is very common for a climber to be in several categories. Again, you know little about this subject area, but you show little appetite to take any guidance. 31.187.2.188 (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support – What I know is this: I want to learn about the sport of sport climbing that is in the Olympics. So I go to sport climbing and find that article is not about the Olympic sport. Instead it tells me, "For the Olympic and IFSC sport of lead climbing, see Climbing competition", and "Confusingly, the sport of competition climbing, which consists of three distinct rock climbing disciplines: lead climbing (the bolted sport climbing element), bouldering (no bolts needed), and speed climbing (also not bolted), is sometimes referred to as 'sport climbing'." So I wonder if that is referring to the Olympic sport? Or is it discipline? Or is it three disciplines? If I haven’t given up, and I go on to look up competition climbing, I get an article titled "climbing competition". "What the ____!” I say, "Competitions? I just want to learn about the Olympic sport! Surely the sport is not named 'climbing competition', and the article on sport climbing didn’t call it that. The TV announcers just called it 'sport climbing'."

Jeff in CA (talk) 04:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support. This article is about competition climbing, the sport that the IFSC control. The above IPs make the case pretty well, listing the IFSC charter that explicitly states that, and giving the BMC history of competition climbing article. No problem having a separate article on climbing competitions which might reference competition climbing, but would cover a wider subject of largely non professional competitions. The arguments by the person opposing make no climbing sense (fe, the IFSC explicitly call their sport competition climbing) and they seem to be very belligerent about them, and ignore the help offered by the IPs (IPs are an important part of Wikipedia too). 31.187.2.188 (talk) 16:35, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support This article should be renamed back to 'competition climbing' (see my points below). There is not need for a separate article on 'climbing competitions', in the same way we have no article on say motorsport competitions or football competitions, but 'climbing competitions' should be renamed to List of climbing competitions, like with List of motorsport championships or List of association football competitions, which is basically the Template:Climbing Competitions navbox (most of which are 'competition climbing' but it would be a useful disambiguation page). To clarify:

  (a) 'Competition climbing' is a sport originally governed by the UIAA which had a subcommittee called the International Council for Competition Climbing, which was taken over in 2006 by the International Federation of Sport Climbing (IFSC) to get Olympic status for 'competition climbing'. The UIAA didn't want the IFSC using the term (there are bad faith in the take-over). However, in the 2023 Rule Book for the IFSC, the first paragraph (on page 12) states: "Clause 1.1 The International Federation of Sport Climbing (IFSC) is the international federation responsible for all aspects of international competition climbing and is the final authority for all matters concerning international competition climbing".

  (b) 'Competition climbing' is not a pejorative term (as claimed above). Here is a recent 2022 article from Climbing (magazine), the most widely read publication in rock climbing: 10 Climbers Who Could Go Very, Very Big This Year. Climbing use the term competition climber and competition climbing many times in this artice. Here is the personal website of Janja Garnbret, the greatest 'competition climber' in history (and called that in the Climbing article), on her own personal website, where she describes herself as: "Janja Garnbert (born 1999) is, at the start of her twenties, already considered the most successful female competition climber of all times."

  (c) The article contains references such as by the important British Mountaineering Council (who act as the local governing body for the IFSC in Britain, and are one of the most prestigious climbing organizations), with a 2021 article titled: A brief history of competition climbing', and another 2021 article on: 'How can you get involved with competition climbing?'.

  (d) In regard to the Olympics, it is the IFSC that regulates and sets the qualification for Olympic competition climbing. Here is Climbing magazine again on 'As a way to prepare the athletes, the International Sport Climbing Federation (IFSC)—the global governing body for competition climbing—began including a combined discipline (as its own entity) in climbing’s 2018 World Championships. Youth championships have also merged the events into a single collective discipline. And beginning in 2019, USA Climbing—the main governing body for competition climbing in the United States—started holding an annual Combined Invitational on par with its other national championships.'

I do think that this discussion has gone down odd paths, and while I have sympathy for people who don't understand the topic, the facts are unambiguous that the article is about 'competition climbing' and 'competition climbers'. Examples include the IFSC 2023 rule book, BMC 2021 articles, Climbing magazine 2022 articles, and even Janja Garnbret's own website, the greatest 'competition climber' in history. We don't need a separate 'climbing competition' article (per above), but we could use a 'List of climbing competitions'. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support. The article is about competition climbing and not climbing competitions. Another article can be made about generic climbing competitions although I don’t think it is needed but this is competition climbing. 89.101.200.206 (talk) 11:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support: this is very much about the discipline, which is generally known as competition climbing, not the concept of a competition in which people climb. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support: per above, this article is clearly about the discipline, which is defined as competition climbing (by the governing body), and not the broader “concept” of a competition in which people climb (ie a climbing competition).31.187.2.79 (talk) 12:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Close this. @User:Primefac, could we close this now? There is enough support from Editors and IPs that the article name should return to "Competition climbing" (which I think would need an admin to manage the page moves). Per almost everybody's agreement above, the evidence is pretty straightforward. "Climbing competition" should be re-directed to "Competition climbing" (i.e. we don't need a generic article on climbing competitions at this stage, although I may come back to it). thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I guess so. Primefac (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for that. Aszx5000 (talk) 07:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Combined

I see that my "placeholder" content on the "combined" event was taken out. It is a confusing event that started out as just a after-total of who had the biggest "combined" score but later became an IFSC medal event where the top competitors in the individual lead, bouldering and speed events then faced-off for the combined final (which is why the combined is always the last event at a meet). Then the Olympics arrived and created a new "combined" event in 2020 and a different one in 2024. I have not been - as yet - able to get a good RS to go through the development of the "combined" event (e.g. when did it become an actual physical event, as opposed to a after-total). I'll keep looking. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea. The combined format definitely seems to be something that is a "work in progress" so the history (if actually documented somewhere) will be helpful to know, especially if folks are watching older competition streams. Primefac (talk) 12:35, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Question

Does anyone know what to shout to start of a rock climbing race, this information would be much appreciated. Thank you! 2A02:C7C:7097:A800:256D:ECDF:81A5:C957 (talk) 18:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Nope. I'm not sure you're referring to the same thing as this article is referring (and we don't have an article on "a rock climbing race") so you might want to search Google. Primefac (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

It is a buzzer for competition speed climbing that goes three times (you start on the third beep), per here). Aszx5000 (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I must come back to this article and finish it off (e.g. combined format, changes in rules, etc.). There is a lot to clean up/update in the overall climbing/mountaineering topic area on Wikipedia. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)