Talk:Armorial of prime ministers of the United Kingdom

David Cameron

The arms of Sir Ewen Cameron, David Cameron's great-great-grandfather are not necessarily those of David Cameron. Note that a younger son has no right to his father’s arms but must petition to matriculate from those of his father his own arms, which will be differenced from his father's. David Cameron is not the eldest son of his father; he has an older brother, Allan. And for Allan to inherit the arms, his father (Ian Cameron) also needs to be the eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son of Sir Ewen Cameron. If not, then he would have to petition for matriculated cadenced arms. DrKay (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@Dr Kay: perhaps we could work together on such matters : you state things with such certainty but they ain't correct, not least the present-day alive & well elder brother who is called Alex (so why persist with reverting your info back to being incorrect?). Anyway let's not argue - although seemingly this seems to be the way of things nowadays, qv. York Herald wherein one individual has the temerity to state : "should an english herald do Scottish Heraldry?"!! A. english, properly has a capital E & B. why shouldn't someone who knows far more than most (about heraldry) impart accurate knowledge for the benefit of others?
Anyway, the ex-PM is entitled by descent to both the ancient Cameron arms and the new ones, being those of Sir Ewen Cameron KCMG (for whom it was apparently too troublesome, ie. expensive and generally problematic to put on record at the Court of Lord Lyon his descent from Lord Lochiel, the 18th Clan Chief, prior to his investiture as KCMG in 1905). Let Lord Lyon adjudicate, if indeed that is where "Call me Dave" chooses to prove his arms. Cameron's COA will, of course, only need to be proven were HM to appoint her ex-PM as either KG or KT. (If the former, then Garter King of Arms would adjudicate.) Many thanks, L'honorable (talk) 02:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

DrKay is correct. We can't take it upon ourselves to attribute the arms of David Cameron's great-great-grandfather to David himself: because such an association appears to be incorrect, and would be original research anyway. Similarly, we shouldn't take it upon ourselves attribute the undifferenced arms of the Cameron chiefs to either men: because this is clearly incorrect, and is also original research. We should only attribute heraldry to an individual when we have a reliable source that does so.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:40, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

@Brianann MacAmhlaidh: DrKay is no fan of mine - this is clear for all to see. So let me simply state that my revision to the article Coats of arms of British prime ministers is accurate. L'honorable (talk) 08:12, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Please stop adding original research into the article. You have to have a source that specifically states that a person possesses a coat of arms - it's original research. You can't take it upon yourself to attribute heraldry to anybody.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:28, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Name is too long

Could we not move it to something like Armorial bearings of British prime ministers or Coats of arms of British prime ministers? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:45, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Robert May's achievement

The section for Theresa May says she is entitled to use the arms of her husband Philip, who in turn derives them from his father Robert. Can anyone find a blazon or a picture of them?Robin S. Taylor (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Robin S. Taylor: yes, voilà : www.dailymail.co.uk - les armoiries May! L'honorable (talk) 02:22, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

It's a shame that the article doesn't give the blazon or any links to somewhere it could be found. I have mocked up a copy of the picture they show. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

@Robin S. Taylor: glad you found the article of interest. Where can one see your mock up of Philip May's COA? Cheers, L'honorable (talk) 18:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The arms of Philip May.

Coming back a year later, I realise that my original mock-up (left) was more accurately ascribed to Philip than to Theresa, thus I have decided to swap the image for this one (right)

The arms of Theresa May.

which I believe to be more accurate. It eliminates the crest (which would not be used by a woman), and adds a mascle for difference (as Hubert Brasier was not armigerous and thus Theresa has no paternal arms with which to impale her husband's). The earlier illustration was probably not accurate even for Philip as it depicts the torse and crest hovering above the shield with no helmet.

Robin S. Taylor (talk) 23:50, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 17:56, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

---

List of coats of arms of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom → Coats of arms of British prime ministers – Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) and Wikipedia:Article titles#Conciseness. Usually, wikipedia treats the Kingdom of Great Britain as not included within the United Kingdom and the list contains prime ministers of Great Britain as well as prime ministers of the United Kingdom. DrKay (talk) 21:50, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support move as a more concise name.  ONR  (talk)  01:41, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
• Likewise in support (of this article rename). L'honorable (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
• I support this move. In addition to the problem of Great Britain vs UK there is also the fact that "Prime Minister" did not attain formal recognition as a title until Campbell-Bannerman's tenure, so the capitalization is inappropriate for his predecessors. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved back to List of coats of arms of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom. While the argument for a shorter title is valid, there is a consensus that WP:CONSISTENCY takes precedence here and that the last RM was not very policy-based. (non-admin closure) Laurdecl ^talk 04:50, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

---

Coats of arms of British prime ministers → Coats of arms of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom – WP:TITLE consistency is important. Each article linked at Template:List of UK Prime Ministers uses the form "Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom", not the pretty informal "British prime ministers". I see no reason why an exception should be made here. --Nevé–selbert 22:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Primefac (talk) 13:12, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Consistency does not trump conciseness, precision or accuracy. DrKay (talk) 22:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Then why open a move discussion for this article and not, say List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom by tenure?--Nevé–selbert 22:36, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
    • I have neither the time nor stamina to visit every page on wikipedia. Other articles should be discussed at those articles, or in a multi-page move. DrKay (talk) 22:43, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Current title is perfectly recognizable, concise, natural, and precise, so if it's not consistent perhaps the others should be examined. Andrewa (talk) 05:45, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support - it is not just articles on UK prime ministers that are WP:CONSISTENT on this, it's articles on other countries as well, which all use the title of the main article (Prime Minsiter of the United Kingdom etc). Thus we have List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of the United States, not List of personal coats of arms of American presidents. And List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of the French Republic. And so on. This article appears to be isolated both within the UK, and in naming for coats of arms articles generally. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

In fact, it should go back to its previous title before the RM above. I didn't see that one, but it appears to use very faulty logic. We don't use "British prime minister" on any of these articles, and it is a list just like those from the other countries.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:53, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

• Strong support: previous move passed using very shaky logic. As has been noted by others this would make the title consistent with other lists about Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and also consitent with the same coats of arms lists of comparable heads of government/state. Ebonelm (talk) 22:00, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support the consistency argument is strong here, and its what tipped it for me. I don't necessarily oppose the current title-- it works and no one is in the dark as to what you are talking about-- but I think the suggested title is better and being consistent should win the day. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

John Major

Why are his arms omitted?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.148.91.187 (talk) 15:02, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Lord Lyon's Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uowFlPj5RiA

The Scottish North American Community Conference from last year has Lyon saying (at about 11 minutes in) that David Cameron had recently matriculated arms from his Scottish family. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 21:49, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher's bearings' image does not match their blazon

At the date and time I'm typing this, there's a white/silver/argent inescutcheon (I think it might be termed "over all" by some) that is not mentioned in the blazon and is also always absent when her arms are depicted on a lozenge instead of a shield. This inconsistency between image and blazon has spilled over onto other pages that refer to these armorial bearings.2600:8804:8C40:401:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Hugh O'Leary

His arms are not sourced. The citation given is just a copy of that in Theresa May's entry, with no mention of him or Liz Truss. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 23:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)