Talk:Cold Crematorium
(Redirected from Talk:Cold Crematorium: Reporting From the Land of Auschwitz)
Latest comment: 7 months ago by AirshipJungleman29 in topic Did you know nomination
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 | A fact from Cold Crematorium appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 April 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Did you know nomination
edit- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 18:57, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
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... that as recounted in Cold Crematorium: Reporting From the Land of Auschwitz, prisoners of Nazi concentration camps were referred to only by number, and were so dehumanized that they spoke of their given names in the past tense?Source: "Starting now, that's my number. I'm no longer me but 33031." His name disappears, and his number "becomes the sole distinguishing mark of my future existence," which is "etched into me within moments." Cold Crematorium p. 60, https://books.google.com/books?id=2km4EAAAQBAJ&q=33031#v=snippet&q=33031&f=false Another prisoner says “'My name was Farkas. Dr. Farkas.' I too say my onetime name. For the first time since I've been here." Cold Crematorium, p. 118; "Debreczeni has a journalist’s eye for the telling human detail, how quickly people are dehumanized. One inmate introduces himself: 'My name was Farkas. Dr. Farkas.' 'Was' is the crucial word. " https://www.thejc.com/life-and-culture/the-details-of-concentration-camp-life-are-brought-to-terrifying-life-hp1bmo3v
Created by Coretheapple (talk). Self-nominated at 23:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Cold Crematorium: Reporting From the Land of Auschwitz; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
- Comment: @Coretheapple: Current hook length for ALT0 is 227 characters. This exceeds WP:DYK200. Viriditas (talk) 19:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Play around with different permutations and find one you prefer. Some examples:
- "that prisoners of Nazi concentration camps were referred to only by number, and were so dehumanized that they spoke of their given names in the past tense?" (155 chars)
- "... that in József Debreczeni's memoir, prisoners of Nazi concentration camps were referred to only by number, and were so dehumanized that they spoke of their given names in the past tense?" (184 chars)
- Yeah those are good. How about this
- ALT 1 *
... that a a newly translated memoir describes how prisoners were so dehumanized by the Nazis that they became numbers, only using their names in the past tense?
- ALT 1 *
- That fits. and I think it works. Coretheapple (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Coretheapple: Personally, I think that's fine, but I do wonder about the interestingness criterion having just had a discussion about this with another editor. We already know, for example, that Nazi prisoners were referred to as numbers, given the identification of inmates in Nazi concentration camps. That you are highlighting a "newly translated memoir" to point to this, gives the reader the impression that this is new information. I'm wondering if you can instead emphasize what this new memoir tells us that we didn't know before. Take a look at my recent discussion about what we consider interesting to see where I'm coming from here. Viriditas (talk) 20:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- True, numbers are not a new element and we don't want to make it seem that it is. However what is new, and I haven't seen this anywhere else (and I'm familiar with Holocaust literature), is that prisoners referred to their own names in the past tense. How about this:
- ALT 2 *
... that a newly translated memoir says prisoners were so degraded by the Nazis that they used their names in the past tense. "My name was...."?
- ALT 2 *
- Coretheapple (talk) 20:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ok. If you can clean that hook up for presentation (you're missing the question mark, and you'll want to remove that parenthetical), I will complete the review. Also, if you have other hooks in mind (I see a lot of potential hooks in your article!) please also add them. Viriditas (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- OK did the cleanup. Yes there is much that can come out of that book. I must tell you frankly that I have never read a book like that before, and I have read tons of Holocaust books. In a sense, not much really new. We know prisoners were caned. We know they were starved. But what makes this book stand out is the manner in which it was described, so vividly. We know prisoners were assigned numbers, for instance. But I have never read a memoir that referred to prisoners themselves abandoning their own names so casually. "I was Farkas." Coretheapple (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- That's a tough hook! I'm not sure we can do it exactly like that, but I see what you are trying to do now. I didn't know you actually intended to keep "My name was" in the hook. Let me think about how to best do this. Viriditas (talk) 20:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- "Newly translated" isn't going to fly per the bit of WP:DYKHOOK that says "definite fact that is unlikely to change" (emphasis mine). ALT3: ... that a Holocaust memoir translated in 2023 described prisoners so degraded by the Nazis that they introduced themselves in past tense, as in "My name was..."?--Launchballer 10:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- That's fine with me. Incidentally the secondary source referencing that passage refers to this as an indication of "dehumanization" so we can sub "dehumanized." May be more precise. So how about:
- "Newly translated" isn't going to fly per the bit of WP:DYKHOOK that says "definite fact that is unlikely to change" (emphasis mine). ALT3: ... that a Holocaust memoir translated in 2023 described prisoners so degraded by the Nazis that they introduced themselves in past tense, as in "My name was..."?--Launchballer 10:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- That's a tough hook! I'm not sure we can do it exactly like that, but I see what you are trying to do now. I didn't know you actually intended to keep "My name was" in the hook. Let me think about how to best do this. Viriditas (talk) 20:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- OK did the cleanup. Yes there is much that can come out of that book. I must tell you frankly that I have never read a book like that before, and I have read tons of Holocaust books. In a sense, not much really new. We know prisoners were caned. We know they were starved. But what makes this book stand out is the manner in which it was described, so vividly. We know prisoners were assigned numbers, for instance. But I have never read a memoir that referred to prisoners themselves abandoning their own names so casually. "I was Farkas." Coretheapple (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ok. If you can clean that hook up for presentation (you're missing the question mark, and you'll want to remove that parenthetical), I will complete the review. Also, if you have other hooks in mind (I see a lot of potential hooks in your article!) please also add them. Viriditas (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- ALT4: ... that a Holocaust memoir translated in 2023 described prisoners so dehumanized by the Nazis that they introduced themselves in past tense, as in "My name was..."?
- I have no preference between Alt 3 and Alt4. Coretheapple (talk) 13:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- ALT4 is fine by me. Viriditas?--Launchballer 13:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I have no preference between Alt 3 and Alt4. Coretheapple (talk) 13:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- True, numbers are not a new element and we don't want to make it seem that it is. However what is new, and I haven't seen this anywhere else (and I'm familiar with Holocaust literature), is that prisoners referred to their own names in the past tense. How about this:
- @Coretheapple: Personally, I think that's fine, but I do wonder about the interestingness criterion having just had a discussion about this with another editor. We already know, for example, that Nazi prisoners were referred to as numbers, given the identification of inmates in Nazi concentration camps. That you are highlighting a "newly translated memoir" to point to this, gives the reader the impression that this is new information. I'm wondering if you can instead emphasize what this new memoir tells us that we didn't know before. Take a look at my recent discussion about what we consider interesting to see where I'm coming from here. Viriditas (talk) 20:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Earwig really dislikes "originally published in Hungarian in Yugoslavia in 1950" and "translated into more than a dozen languages", so figure out a way to rewrite those phrases. I realize some people might let that pass, but I think it should be easy to rephrase it so that it stands out from the original source. Although it is not essential or required, I would link kapo in the body, and remove it and the duplicate link to József Debreczeni in the see also section. As for the hooks, I'm fine with ALT 4. Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Have zapped the close paraphrasing and dealt with the "see also" situation. Thanks for all the good input, and do read this book! Coretheapple (talk) 21:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- GTG. See review above. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Coretheapple My apologies to spring this on you if you were not already aware. Given that this was nominated after 8 March, and that you appear to have more than 20 nominations, you should provide a second QPQ.--Launchballer 21:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ouch! I didn't know the rules changed. OK, see Template:Did you know nominations/Longlac. Glad I saw this as I will be offline for a few days. Coretheapple (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- (just to be clear, totally my bad!) Coretheapple (talk) 15:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- GTG again. Second QPQ checks out. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Coretheapple My apologies to spring this on you if you were not already aware. Given that this was nominated after 8 March, and that you appear to have more than 20 nominations, you should provide a second QPQ.--Launchballer 21:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- GTG. See review above. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Title
editI'm fairly certain this title should be at Cold Crematorium per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books). Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Moved per COMMONNAME. Viriditas (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, that's fine. Originally that is how I named it, but then I renamed, but I think reverting makes sense. Coretheapple (talk) 15:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)