Talk:Controller of the Navy (Royal Navy)

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ACNS Capability and Chief of Staff are now separate

ACNS Capability and Chief of Staff are now separate according to Colin Mackie's list.

ACNS Capability: Rear Admiral Hugh Beard

Chief of Staff Navy Command: Commodore Paul Beattie.

BlueD954 (talk) 06:06, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

link http://www.gulabin.com/armynavy/pdf/Admirals-Current.pdf

BlueD954 (talk) 07:09, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME

Dear Navops47, Dormskirk, BlueD954, I believe we need to discuss either a split or a change of name for this article. WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME suggests that a page should be at it's most recent title ("the title should generally be the last name used"), unless one of the other titles is more notable. Appointments to the office of Third Sea Lord ceased in 1965; Controller of the Navy in 2018, but a bunch of additional often changing responsibilities from 2003. It now become confusing attaching the title Third Sea Lord, especially, to the much-altered and much changing responsibilities of the officers named in the last twenty years or so. I believe we might appropriately split the page at the last appointment of solely Controller of the Navy (2003), and create a new page for the last twenty years or so, maybe at the current title (COS Navy Command HQ), maybe at another title. Your thoughts? Kind regards and Happy New Year, Buckshot06 (talk) 05:45, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

This article has historically been about the senior officer responsible for procurement and matériel in the Navy. I think we could move the current article to "Controller, Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability)" although this is a bit of a mouthful. But Commodore Paul S. Beattie should be removed from the article because the role has now been split and Beattie seems to have no responsibility for Capability i.e. procurement and matériel. That responsibility remains with Rear-Admiral Hugh Beard. If my understanding of the practical situation in the Navy is correct we could have two articles:

• "Controller, Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability)" History: started 1832. Responsibility: procurement and matériel. Office holders: all commanders from Pechell through Potts, Morse, Bennett, Magowan and (now) Beard.
• "Chief of Staff, Navy Command HQ" History: started 2013. Responsibility: administration at Navy Command HQ. Office holders: Potts, Morse, Bennett, Magowan and (now) Beattie.

Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 09:53, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi I agree the one constant tile that has remained in use is Controller we could create the additional titles as separate pages e.g. Chief of Staff Navy Command previously an RADM now CDRE but I don't know why its on this page. I did create Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability) we could next to each listing say e.g. Rear-Admiral Hugh Beard, (also Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability)) or just add a note explaining joint titles then link. Looking at the sea lords the fourth sea lord could separate also because his title changed completely to chief of fleet support. The fifth sea lord is fine. The second sea lord another candidate to separate as we already have commander in chief naval home command and deputy chief of the naval staff again a section note may suffice and remove those titles from the section headings. Chief of Naval Personnel could be a separate page considering you also deputy chiefs of naval personnel at one time VADM's responsible for all the personnel, recruitment and training departments.--Navops47 (talk) 10:27, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi - You are right to remove Beattie: he should not be on the page. I also think it was helpful that you created Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability) (although I had missed that it already existed): I suggest we (i) add Potts to Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Capability) and (ii) remove Potts, Morse, Bennett, Magowan and Beattie from the article on Third Sea Lord. Dormskirk (talk) 11:19, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't take any blame but was simply pointing out the split responsiblity which was not noted at all despite the creation of the Beard entry which erroneously stated he heled both roles. None of you noted that at all. BlueD954 (talk) 11:49, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. I certainly would not have been aware of the change and it was very helpful that you pointed it out. Dormskirk (talk) 11:56, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi can you confirm that the title Controller is still in use because I have access to the https://www.civilserviceyearbook.com/login using my library card and the title is not listed from a menu option I click the Ministry of Defence (MoD) then Navy Command under the search menu is Navy Personnel and Capability when I click that is headed by 2SL and DCNS below him is search menu of subordinate organisations which has the heading Naval Capability when I click that is headed by the Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Capability) and shows his subordinate staff.--Navops47 (talk) 12:24, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I have now created the page Chief of Staff Navy Command (HQ) per my previous question I have amended the Third Sea Lord page and book cited the title Controller of the Navy down to 2011 however apart from Mackies lists I cannot seem find the tile Controller of the Navy being used for the other flag officers unless anyone else can direct me to a reliable source.--Navops47 (talk) 04:22, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

In addition I think we should also either move this page to its last common name i.e. Controller of the Navy, 1965 was the last time Third Sea Lord as a title or split it from 1965 use any objections/concerns please list them here thanks.--Navops47 (talk) 04:40, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

I would support moving the whole article to Controller of the Navy. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Endorse move to Controller of the Navy. Further changes may be necessary, to reflect the last few years. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

I have moved page per your comments to Controller of the Navy (Royal Navy) up until the end of Rear-Admiral Amjad Hussain appointment in 2012 I cannot find any additional sources clearly stating this title still in use other than mackies lists. It appears from looking at the civil service year book archives certainly from 2013 that according to that source this title is not specifically mentioned I am assuming therefore that as Colin Mackie's lists are known by the MOD the title must still be in use any thoughts anyone else?--Navops47 (talk) 07:14, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Holder

Is Rear Admiral James Parkin.2401:7400:4008:9843:ACDD:9953:35B0:320B (talk) 19:12, 5 December 2021 (UTC)