Talk:Gordyene

Linguistic and cultural continuity with modern Kurds?

Is there any serious scholarly reason to doubt this? It does strike me as the default hypothesis when dealing with a people called Karduchoi and similar, a land called Corduene and similar, in or very close to the areas now inhabited by modern Kurds.Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of non-partisan sources which doubt it, and which say that the Kurds are (in historical terms) recent migrants to this region, and that they killed, drove out, or assimilated the original population. Meowy 21:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This is ridicolous. There is not a single credible geneticist who would doubt the aboriginal and nativity of Kurds to the region.

Their genome is bonafide native to their region. This is just classical POV pushing which is always found in all discussions pertaining to Kurds.

It is beyond me how claims like these can be considered even remotely credible.

You are free to show me where these kurds "recently" immigrated from. 84.216.192.142 (talk) 13:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@Richard Keatinge - Are you kidding? This so called hypothesis is by no means mainstream. The vast majority of mainstream scholars refute it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.12.109.36 (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Despite above (mostly ideological) controversies, the modern impartial and abundant biochemic-genomical comparisons in last years on Kurdish populations in S.E. Turkey, West Iran and North Iraq prove quite inverse results from above 'historical' prejudices (despite so-called "mainstream" indicated above). Briefly: Turkish Kurds are almost bio-physically the hoary local aborigines descending directly at least 5,000 years ago from the local people named Kardu in Sumerian and Kardariki in Akkadian, but Iranian Kurds are only partly of regional proto-historic descendance, while the Iraquian Kurds are mostly a newer immigrant mixture with few local genomic ancestors. These newer data are real an objective (I am independent European scientist without any interests nor links to Kurds or their neighbors). Therefore evidently, this deviant article must be modernized, i.e. radically transformed or otherwise moved. External Controller, 11:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Fringe ideas

The article is full of revisionist and fringe theories presented as mainstream scholarly views, it needs to to be throughly checked for POV and inaccuracies by an expert. --Mardavich 02:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Are Roman/Greek sources Fringe? :). Please explain in detail your concerns.Heja Helweda 02:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't remove the tag, I have nominated the article to be checked by a neutral expert. Lumping corduene with Kurds and Kurdistan is not mainstream scholarly view. --Mardavich 02:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down. Have you checked the sources? Read the discussion by Rawlinson [1] The word(carduene) is no doubt the ancient representative of the modern Kurdistan, and means a country in which Kurds dwelt..Heja Helweda 02:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Which one?

This article is on history of Roman Corduene or the earlier independent land inhabited by Corduchi? To my understating even Iranians had this land as their Satrapy before Romans did. Maybe we remove text from this page and create new articles? Confusing anyways. HeviyaJiyan

The current article is focused on Roman Corduene from 66BC to early 5th century. Persians wanted to take over these lands during Achamenides, but the indigenous population (Carduchis) mainly resisted Persian attempts of conquest. For more on this see History of the Kurds.Heja Helweda 20:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Internally inconsistent

Article states that the name is from Armenian and that it was an Armenian kingdom and then says that the name is a corruption of Kurd and has always been Kurdish. Can't be both, guys.

Please try to stick to facts and avoid ideological/nationalist blinders! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.85.51 (talk) 14:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Xenophon's account

The part referring to Xenophon doesn't quite agree with the sources (Anabasis, Book IV). What Xenophon says (and seems quite reasonable) is that the Greeks decided to cross the Zagros mountains into modern-day Turkey, but they had no food, guides or interpreters. So they proceeded as they could and looted the local villages for food, but they did not harm the villagers or steal their chattels in case the Karduchi agreed to let them pass without a fight. That did not happen, however, and the Greek army had to fight all the way to the plains (where the Karduchi retreated back into their own mountains and the Greek army continued its march north towards the Greek city of Trabzon). Xenophon also states that the casualties of the Greek army while crossing the Zagros mountains were higher than their entire losses by their Persian enemies. 212.107.31.35 15:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

About Meowy's deletions

You deleted the following paragraph:

The three principalities of Corduene, Moxoene and Zabdicene are referred to as Carduchian dynasties (Ref: C. Toumanoff, Introduction to Christian Caucasian History II: Status and Dynasties of the Formative Period, Traditio, Vol. XVII, pp.1-107, 1961, Frodham University Press, New York. (see pp.31-32).

This source is published in 1961, so your argument about 19th century sources is not valid, because not all the sources are that old and more recent ones have also been included.Heja Helweda (talk) 00:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the paragraph because it was in the wrong place, it has nothing to do with "Carduchoi in Xenophon". I've moved it into the lead section. Stop inserting 19th-century pseudo-history into the article as if it were fact and stop erasing modern sources. Modern scholars agree that Corduene has no connection, linguistic or ethnic, with "Kurdistan". Meowy 23:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

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Back to original format

Claims that portray the region as part of Armenian Kingdom are not supported by other strong evidence specially Roman writers, who have clearly stated that during the period from 66 BC to 600 AD, this region was conquered by the Romans many times and there was even a Roman military unit named after Corduene.Vekoler (talk) 23:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

kurdikî family

İt can be a connection between Corduchi and Kurdikî family or it is just a similarity pronounce? i mean Kurdikî(kurdikan) from Sharafnama. sharafkhan wrote about this family in page 280. it is a map in the book of Izady name of Kürtler. where they come this kardakan(kurdikî family) "http://www.institutkurde.org/images/cartes_and_maps/native_kurdish_provincial.jpg" --Azad4707 (talk) 09:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

"Carduchian dynasties" - thread copied from my talk page

I noticed your edit to Corduene. I'd agree that not everything verifiable should be included and we should avoid giving certain points of view WP:UNDUE emphasis. Perhaps Cyril Toumanoff's opinion on Carduchian dynasties should be lower in the article and not in the lede. But I'm surprised you felt it appropriate to completely delete this information, which appears to accurately summarize Toumanoff's opinion. Our article on him says his works have significantly influenced the Western scholarship of the medieval Caucasus. I have no particular axe to grind about east Anatolian history, but it seems better to include this view (and others that disagree or concur) than to cut them out. Frankly, there's little scholarship at all on Corduene, so the more we can do to separate solid history from nationalist myth, the better. Rupert Clayton (talk) 02:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Thinking about this longer, I want to acknowledge that I may be overlooking some tendentious aspect of Toumanoff's claim that the principality of Corduene was a Carduchian dynasty. I realize that some people are very anxious to see the Carduchians as proof of Kurdish presence in the area; others seem equally anxious to refute this. If so, perhaps we can reference other views to provide perspective. Or maybe it's just that the Carduchian link is of minor importance in the thousand-plus-year history of this territorial unit under various names. In which case, we move it lower. Other suggestions welcome. Rupert Clayton (talk) 02:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Not seeing a response here, can I assume that you're OK for me to restore the Toumanoff info at some point in that article. Rupert Clayton (talk) 17:37, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Rupert Clayton, between the Arbitration Committee, trying to do some editing, and real life I've forgotten about this. My concern is that it doesn't seem to be significant enough to meet WP:UNDUE. Have you searched for other reliable sources making the same claim? Doug Weller (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

No worries: I can see you're a busy person, and it's a busy time of year. Like I said, scholarship on Corduene is thin at best. It seems you edit a lot on Persian topics, so you may have read a lot more on the subject than me. If there's a reason you feel the Toumanoff claim is particularly POV, I'd like to make sure the context of alternative views is given due prominence. If it's just that there's little other info on "Carduchian dynasties" then I'd rather leave in Toumanoff's claim, but move it to somewhere less prominent than the lede.

I understand the merit of WP:UNDUE, but it's one thing to repeat a wild claim that Donald Trump is a chimera with ginger cat genes (for example), and another to accurately summarize a statement from a reliable WP:SOURCE that's really neither corroborated nor disputed simply due to the paucity of coverage. Rupert Clayton (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also[2] 2 years earlier, User:Rupert Clyaton. Doug Weller (talk) 14:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused. That looks like the same Toumanoff reference from Traditio, 1961 (INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIAN CAUCASIAN HISTORY: II: States and Dynasties of the Formative Period). Part I of that article, published 1959, has a couple of references to Corduene, but those don't seem to help us much. Did you mean a different link? Rupert Clayton (talk) 17:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Rupert Clayton No, I just confused myself. I still feel that if this was something commonly accepted we'd find more evidence of it, including writers in the last 60 or so years mentioning Toumanoff's claim. Our inability to find this is why I don't think it belongs. We could asked for a third opinion - Wikipedia:Third opinion or an WP:RFC but we'd need to copy this thread to the talk page, which I think we should do anyway - are you happy with copying it there? Doug Weller (talk) 19:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm happy for this thread to move to Talk:Corduene. Not sure this is worth the effort of an RFC. Maybe I should just put Toumanoff's claim lower down the article, and note that it appears not to have been echoed by more recent scholars? Rupert Clayton (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Rupert Clayton: The problem with that is that the statement about not being echoed is original research. I often wish I could use it! Doug Weller (talk) 20:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 16 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 11:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Corduene → Gordyene – Per WP:COMMON NAME. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• More results at Ngram since circa 1990: [3]

• More results at JSTOR: Gordyene 147 Corduene 78

• More results at Brill Publishers: Gordyene 92 Corduene 41

• In what is probably the latest major work on the area, also uses "Gordyene": Marciak, Michał (2017). Sophene, Gordyene, and Adiabene: Three Regna Minora of Northern Mesopotamia Between East and West. Brill Publishers. ISBN 978-90-04-35072-4.

• Oxford University Press [4] and Encyclopædia Iranica also use "Gordyene" [5] HistoryofIran (talk) 23:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Tentative support, noting that the proposed title is the most common Greek name, while the current title is the most common Roman or Latin name. It probably needs to have a whole section dedicated to its various names, as well as noting these two in the lead. This article seems to have been the subject of recent edit warring, which is understandable, as it seems to be of interest to Turkey, Iran, Armenia, and the Kurds, but discussion of the name predates the recent disputes.

The DGRG lists it under 'C', as "Cordyene, Gordyene", both Latinizations from the Greek name, spelled with a gamma, although the inhabitants are spelled alternately with gamma or kappa in Greek, 'C' in Latin. In Roman times the article refers to it as Corduene. PW lists it under 'G', with the title in Greek, Γορδυηνη, alphabetized after "Gordos", noting that in Latin its inhabitants are called "Cordueni" or "Cardueni". The DGRG article, which is slightly more detailed, indicates that it is cognate with Kurdistan, something this article and the one on Kurdistan cite to the Columbia Encyclopedia. So the connection between the Cardueni and the Kurds seems to be a venerable idea in scholarship, and there are probably more sources suggesting it. P Aculeius (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit warring

@Zemen: Feel free to take your concerns here. Without WP:ASPERSIONS/WP:NPA of course. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran What concerns sir? I haven't even mentioned whether Gordyene is Kurdish or not. what you are talking about is all 'if' for Hebrew, armenian and even Kurdish. NO one can absolutely prove whether they were Mongols or slavs, persians or Kurds? and exactly what language they spoke in these conflicts, especially in a wikipedia article. even, you puted the text below that says they should not be seen as Kurds. like you, the source I have given does not mention their Kurdishness, it only proves how the names of the Gordyene (which are widely discussed among the Kurds and like folklore) are pronounced in Kurdish. hope you understand. Zaman (talk) 22:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll try again:

Kurdish is irrelevant here, it was neither spoken nor did the Kurds exist back then. The Kurdish connection between the Carduchii is highly disputed per the article. Heck, even the origin of the Carduchii are disputed per the article. Hebrew and Armenian, however, are all attested during this period and before that (though I would neither oppose nor support having them removed, that's another story). Here, have some more WP:RS:

"Minorsky noted that the ethnonym "kurd" did not have a generally accepted etymology and suggested it was a generic term for "nomad", pointing to Strabo's inclusion of the Cyrtians alongside other "migrant" and "predatory" tribes, all of "the same character", which Minorsky took to mean that they all had a nomadic life style." " - p. 112, Potts, Daniel T. (2014). Nomadism in Iran: From Antiquity to the Modern Era. London and New York: Oxford University Press.

"It should be remembered that “Kurd” in the sources of the 4th-5th/10th-11th centuries refers to all the transhumants of the Zagros region including the Lors." - Ch. Bürgel and R. Mottahedeh, ʿAŻOD-AL-DAWLA, ABŪ ŠOJĀʾ FANNĀ ḴOSROW, Iranica

"As is well-known, the term Kurd had a rather indiscriminate use in the early mediaeval Arabo-Persian historiography and literature, with an explicit social connotation, meaning “nomad, tent-dweller, shepherd” (Minorsky 1931: 294; idem 1940: 144-145; idem 1943: 75; Izady 1986: 16; Asatrian 2001: 47ff.), as well as “robber, highwayman, oppressor of the weak and treacherer” (Driver 1922b: 498ff)." - p. 79, Asatrian, Garnik (2009). "Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds". Iran and the Caucasus. 13

"Most conclusive of all is the fact that Kurd in the older Persian or Arab sense meant simply nomad with no particular ethnic connotations. In this case, Ardavan V's letter becomes more insulting, since in effect he is calling Ardashir an ignorant nomad" - p. 48, J. Limbert. (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies

"In medieval Arabic sources, the term kurd (plural akrād) denotes Iranian nomads, or nomads who were neither Arab nor Turkic, and is applied to people well outside the current region of Kurdistan. The Kurds as we now know them are made up almost certainly of a variety of different peoples, among whom Iranian tribesmen have been predominant." - p. 66, Manz, B. (2021). The Rise of New Peoples and Dynasties. In Nomads in the Middle East (Themes in Islamic History, pp. 55-80). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

"Then follows the description of Ardašīr’s triumph over Ardawān in the battle of Hormuzagān (see HORMOZDGĀN) and his victorious campaign against the Kurds (a term that in pre-Islamic times designated the various nomadic lineages, rather than a specific ethnicity)." - C. G. CERETI, Iranica

"Tribes always have been a feature of Persian history, but the sources are extremely scant in reference to them since they did not 'make' history. The general designation 'Kurd' is found in many Arabic sources, as well as in Pahlavi book on the deeds of Ardashir the first Sassanian ruler, for all nomads no matter whether they were linguistically connected to the Kurds of today or not. The population of Luristan, for example, was considered to be Kurdish, as were tribes in Kuhistan and Baluchis in Kirman" - p. 111, Richard Frye, The Golden age of Persia, Phoneix Press, 1975. Second Impression December 2003.

"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθᾱίται [= al-K̲h̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of K̲h̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin)." - Kurds, Kurdistān, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, Bois, Th., Minorsky, V. and MacKenzie, D.N. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

You are now talking about whether the Kurdish language was spoken in the past or not, which is completely meaningless, according to this logic, hundreds of states and empires should be deprived of their present language bcoz it was not spoken then or wasn't like their current language. persian language was formed in the same way, gradually (not exactly what it is now). I'm tired of always going to my library or looking through the archives and saying, 'Look, these people saying that your language didn't exist a thousand years ago' which is completely meaningless. what about Medes, whom historians say the Kurds were part of? whatever the meaning of 'Kurd', Kurds are Kurds, until the middle ages, Kurds were known as nomads, shepherds and mountaineers. Zaman (talk) 00:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Not meaningless, you're trying to add the language after all, despite it not being around at the time, which makes it anachronistic to add. And no sources says the the Kurds were part of the Medes. There are speculations about the Kurds being descended from Medes, but that's also widely disputed (and doesn't mean they're the same people), as seen in this sourced section [6] - but this is not relevant here. And please see WP:OTHER. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You say it wasn't at that time? no one will take your word, who are you to make that decision? everything is controversial, as always, historians are divided, some say no, some say so. I meant the Medes that you say there was no such thing as 'Kurd' at that time when by some of these historians the Kurds are known as the descendants of the Medes (even if it's mythological) i'm not saying that, and you are not allowed to refute it with the words of 'a few persons' 'couse it's still doubtful. how about I tell you that the Sassanids were part of the Kurds? Ibn Balkhi, himself a persian geographer, mathematician, physician, psychologist and scholar, said in his Fars-Nama, during the Islamic (Arab) conquests: “600,000 'Kurds' were killed and only one Kurdish warrior named 'Alak' he was rescued who was later forced to convert to Islam.” (may the numbers be slightly exaggerated; for the text see page xviii of the introductory section). he clearly says that the Kurds were part of the Sassanids and fought against the muslims. I'm sure u, like all other porsians, will resort to the saying that the word 'Kurd' is a word used for shepherd. did 600,000 shepherds fight against Islamic conquests? why should he say such a thing? your excuses are empty, sir. + and please don't bring anything written in the Irancia. Zaman (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Except it's not my word, I am not making "excuses" either, that's not what "excuse" means. Feel free to re-read my comment, it's well sourced. The Farsnama is a primary source, this is the third time I asking you to read WP:RS. And you don't get to choose whether Iranica should be used or not, it qualifies as a WP:RS.

I'm sure u, like all other porsians, will resort to the saying that the word 'Kurd' is a word used for shepherd.

Yet another attack. Is it that hard for you to not comment on me? --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What attack? this is the idea of the persian Iranians, which some Kurds also have, sir. and ofc something you don't like isn't reliable. Zaman (talk) 13:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Keep those theories to yourself, instead of imposing them on me. And this has nothing to do with me "not liking" stuff, more WP:ASPERSIONS (and also quite rich considering you don't want Iranica cited). I've reported you to WP:ANI. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I haven't said anything about you, you confirmed this theory yourself with your comments. Zaman (talk) 14:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Doubling down. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)