Talk:Croatian Air Force

Croatian Air Force and Defense

There is no such organization in Croatia, it is either Croatian Air Force and Air Defense or Croatian Air Force.

Hrvatsko Ratno Zrakoplostvo means Croatian Air Forces. Change it, thanx Mic of orion (talk) 14:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, this page needs bit of grammar work and updating a bit. Mic of orion (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Mig21 immage posted on wiki of Croatian Airforce.

Mic of orion 16:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Mic of orionMic of orion 16:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC) Can anyone see this image ?

Someone somehow put Mig-21. Image name is MiG21 HR.jpg --Dtomcro 18:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC) [1]

File:MiG-21 HR.jpg

MiG21 BIS

Procurement Plans Accuracy

The Croatian Ministry of Defence (MORH , www.morh.hr for links to certain relevant documents) reports the proposed accquisition of 5 Zlin 142 basic trainers in 2007. There is no official record (or independent as far as I can find) of 2 Zlin 242L aircraft having been delivered to the HRZ during 2006, nor of an existing order for an additional 4 such aircraft.

The modernization programme extends the service-life of Croatia's An-32s until at least 2015 (probably 2020) and since this is continuing, I would suggest that this undermines the reports of the accquisition of 3-5 large transport aircraft (again not officially recorded in MORH documents). Speculation on the expansion of the transport fleet by 1-2 aircraft may be reasonable, but any further procurements would not be financially viable.

Neither is their any official record of plans to create a capable ASW helicopter fleet nor do funds exist for a significant expansion of this.

The statement about the procurement of 4-8 corvettes from France has no foundation in MORH policy, and all independent records suggest that any procurement would be from Sweden (Goteborg class) rather than France. There is an MORH plan to create an off-shore patrol force (project beginning 2009), but whether advanced ships like the Goteborg class fall into this category (particularly considering financial constraints and plans to reduce the HRM's RBS-15 SSM arsenal) is debatable.

The MORH does not make any suggestion of an expansion to the CL-415 fleet.

It should be noted that most of these objections to the article are raised from the absence of official Croatian government documents on the procurement plans and impossibilities raised by financial considerations over the current 2006-2015 procurement period.

KPThaller 11:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi KPThaler,

Unfortunately no info on Zlin until they were actually delivered, it was reported by Croatian TV and Croatian MOD can verify the delivery. Air Force has plans to replace all its UTVA-75 with Zlin242L by the end of the decade, not sure are they going to replace one for one basis, but it looks most likely the case.

As to transport aircraft, yep it is not really clear what Croatia aims to buy, although 2 An32B are good aircraft, they are inadequate for Croatian needs.

CN295 where in contention, Flight International stated that unnamed Croatian MOD official stated that 5xCN295 are being sought. I don't know how much CN295 costs (I assume to be in region of 25-30 million per aircraft) we are talking major funds, considering the inevitable purchase of 14 JAS39 (if Grippen wins) this is 700 million euros out of the window.

As to helicopters, Croatia intends to procure additional helicopters, current fleet is very old and inadequate, with the deliver of 10 new Mil 171sh, Croatia will field 40 helicopters that are in flying condition.

Croatia needs about 30-40 more helicopters, but when and how they going to get them is beyond me. 4-6 ASW helicopters are only option if Croatia goes ahead with the purchase of 4 new Corvettes as stated in defense white paper.

Croatia plans no other ASW assets, no submarines either. 15-20 billion Kuna has been set aside to for procurement of new equipment over next 7-8 years. Navy is to receive around 3 billion, Air Force - 7 billion and Army 5 billion, but additional funds might be available after 2010.

Croatian aim is to bring armed forces to NATO standard by 2015.Mic of orion

Someone posted information about Croatian AF getting F35's along with the JAS 39 C/D, this is not accurate, Croatian AF won't be getting any F35's, aircraft are deemed to expensive. Croatian AF might get E/F version of JAS 39 as Sweden is currently looking to offer enhanced version of JAS 39 to potential customers, Denmark, Norway and Croatia, but only if there is a interest for that particular version. Mic of orion

Fair use rationale for Image:Hrm.jpg

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BetacommandBot 01:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hkov.jpg

Image:Hkov.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 10:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Numbers of Mig 21

In the official page,Croatian air force have 24 mig and not 12. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.172.251.123 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

since 2 migs crashed the other day only 6-8 are in airworthy condition and now croatia is forced to replace entire mig fleet with the modern western fighter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.53.72 (talk) 02:49, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Helicopter & Fixed Aircraft possible future procurements

current helicopter fleet consist of 24 Mil 171sh/8MTV and 8 Bell 206, but this barley suffices the need of the air force. Long term plan calls for 12 attack helicopters, 24 transport helicopters, 6 antisubmarine helicopters, 4 Search and rescue helicopters and up 12 utility and training helicopters. Giving us a fleet that might look something like this around 2020, btw this is all speculative, and it depends on Croatia's ability to mange its finances and keep defence budget at around 2% of GDP..

• 24x NH90 or Eurocopter AS532 Cougar - transport and liaison
• 10x AS 565 or AgustaWestland AW109 - ASW and SAR
• 12x Boeing AH-64 Apache or Eurocopter Tiger - Attack and anti tank
• 10x EC145 or Bell 206 - Training and Utility

• 18-24x EF2000 or JAS39C/D - attack/intercept
• 20x PC9M (modernisation around 2017/8)Advanced Training
• 8x Zlin 242L Basic Training
• 6x CL 415 Fire Fighting
• 6x AT802 Fire Fighting
• 5x C27J or CN295 - Tactical Transport and Para Training
• 2x CL604 - VIP
• 3x Pilatus PC6 or similar - utility and light transport

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.53.72 (talk) 11:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000

Are you sure they are proposed? These are not produced anymore so how can have they been proposed? Matthieu (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt, mirage 2000 were on a cards, at least France was offering its Mirage 2000-5, details of the offer aren't known suffice to say offer wasn't successful as Croatia has now opted for either Jas39 or EF2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.53.72 (talk) 23:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Aviation history

Since NDH is not by any legal line predecessor of today's Republic of Croatia it cannot be said that Croatian aviation beginnings were in the Croatian Air Force Legion. If anything from that period can be considered the beginning it must be the small partisan air force(Yugoslav_Partisans#Partisan_Air_Force).

Yeah, it "wasn't the predecesor of today's Republic of Croatia" but was supported by almost all the population of Croatia, because the Croats were dominated in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The today's rulers of Croatia said that the NHD wasn't the predecesor state of Croatia for political reasons. If they supported the NDH will recive a international conviction. It's very simple, the victors in war are those who decide who was the "Criminal state" and who wasn't. --190.172.241.32 (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Defence or defense?

This article mixes both variants but according to WP:ENGVAR it must be consistent in the variety of English used. How does the Croatian goverment spell it in their English documents, press releases, etc? Roger (talk) 06:17, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I've just found the answer, the official website uses Defence - http://www.morh.hr/en/ - I'm going to fix this article now. Roger (talk) 06:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Move

I have moved the article to its previous name as the one Director used is completely misleading, made up and plain wrong. The full title of the service is Hrvatsko ratno zrakoplovstvo i protuzračna obrana (Croatian Air Force and Air Defence), and its present English title is in line with other similar articles (for example: Serbian Air Force and Air Defence and Slovenian Air Force and Air Defence. The term "Croatian Air Defence (Hrvatska protuzračna obrana) means nothing and the designation has never been used, either by the Croatian Ministry of Defence or by foreign publications and other sources to describe the CroAF. Not to mention that "Croatian Air Defence" more accurately describes the Air Defence Regiment (Pukovnija protuzračne obrane) of the Croatian ground forces who's only job is to provide, well, air defence. The Air Force on the other hand provides air policing, air defence at altitudes above the range of ground based SAMs and close air support on both land and sea, among other things. Considering I know your interests are in other subjects, I presume you "parachuted" into this article after the recent MiG-21 controversy. I strongly suggest that the next time you feel an urge to move an article, at least write a decent explanation on the talk page with appropriate sources to back it up. And by that, I mean something better than "more accurate title".--Saxum (talk) 21:41, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, I apologize.

For what its worth, wasn't actually me, but someone else on my computer. It was a kind of joke... considering our planes are probably in Africa by now :) -- Director (talk) 18:44, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

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Air force renamed to Croatian Air Force, Air Defense dropped

Ona March 23rd, Croatian Parliament officially changed the name of Croatian Air Force and Air Defense by removing Air Defense from the name. So the official name is now only Croatian Air Force. The Title of the article should be changed to reflect that, as it is now inaccurate.

Media report in Croatian: https://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/sabor-u-petak-mijenja-svoj-poslovnik---511098.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.252.215.223 (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Edits by User:FOX 52

Original heading "User Fox 52 is doing it again. He was warned, ignored to check his facts and deleted the talk" replaced: Keep headings neutral. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Croatian Air Force never operated Soko G-4, Soko J-22 Orao, Bell 205 and SA342 Gazelle. False facts and false claim of a source;

Retired Previous aircraft operated by the Air Force were the Soko G-4, Soko J-22 Orao, Antonov An-2, Antonov An-32, Mil Mi-24, Bell 205, Bell 212, MD 500, SA342 Gazelle helicopters[24] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.161.225 (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Really what does this say? World Air Forces 1997 - FOX 52 (talk) 19:28, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Your first source doesn't say anything [2] on that, other one you pulled just now [3] has question marks for G-4 and J-22, wrong data for MiG-21MF and wrong numbers and data for An-26, SA342 and Bell 205. Somebody confused Croatian Air Force with Yugoslav Air Force. Sources for my claims in English are [4], [5]. You can always search for actual facts on the official Croatian DoD site [6]. More accurate data and tables are at Croatian Wikipedia. As you're not a member of Croatian Air Force or a native Croatian speaker you'll have to do some digging, not just copy paste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.149.162 (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Soko G-2 Super Galeb = "One G-4 Super Galeb captured when the Udbina Airbase in Krajina was overrun on 5 August 1995. If this aircraft put into HRZ service it was only for a short time, until the aircraft became unserviceable."
• http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/croatia/af2/types/antonov.htm#an-2 list 16 An-2s in service.
• http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/croatia/af2/types/antonov.htm#an-32 lists 3 An-32s in service.
• http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/croatia/af2/types/mil.htm#mi24 has a list of Mil-24s.
• Not the most reliable of sites but gives an indication that its not all rubbish. MilborneOne (talk) 14:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for links, I've already posted main table from that source [7]. I'm not disputing all claims from Fox 52's sentence (ie. An-2, An-32 and Mi-24), only G-4, J-22, SA342 and Bell 205. Also his new source adds new false data like MiG-21MF and An-26. Sources about Croatian Air Force in English are sparse and most of them are wrong or heavily outdated. Authors have issues with timeline of Croatian Independence War and dissimilitude between Croatian, Serbian Rebel And Yugoslav Air Forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.230.90 (talk) 15:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

In addition to yor quote "Soko G-2 Super Galeb = One G-4 Super Galeb", it's a different type of aircraft. G-2 Galeb is not G-4 Super Galeb.

Then you'll need to provide a reliable source, stating otherwise your word alone is not enough – Thank you FOX 52 (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I guess then it's my source [8] vs yours [9]. Difference is that in my source you can click on every aircraft in the table and check references made by author, John Hayles made for Aeroflight. Your source is just a short table from Flightglobal magazine 1997, without any references. At this point I'm just pointing out how inaccurate and toxic are your "contributions". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.230.90 (talk) 19:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

You were provided by 4 new independent sources that you ignored and made an undo and reported vandalism. After that you misrepresented one of mine sources to support your claims, and admitted that Bell 2015 was used by Croatian Police, not Air Force. There is no point of discussing further, administrators should jump in. You could provide an evidence, there should be at least one photo of G-4, J-22 or SA342 in Croatian markings somewhere on the web.

No it's available here, further you should refrain from attacking fellow editor's contributions as "inaccurate and toxic" per Wikipedia:Civility - FOX 52 (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Mea culpa, I've quoted a false link from you, user Fox 52. But it's the same problem, your source is one short table from Flightglobal magazine 1997 without any references. And you keep ignoring sources posted by me and MilborneOne. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not about winning, check the part about Wikipedia:Do not create hoaxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.230.90 (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

As a final proof you used one of mine sources on 27 June 2018 [10] that has a specific subsection which is debunking all your claims. I'm quoting the source; "This page gives details of some of the aircraft types that were offered or promised to the Croatian Air Force but not delivered, cancelled official orders, and types that have been falsely reported as being in service." Listed aircrafts are SA342 Gazelle and J-22(IAR-93) Orao.[11] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.252.84 (talk) 15:23, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm proposing to Wikipedia community to ban user FOX 52 from editing this article due to his attitude and previous actions. If he continues to vandalise and argue with other users please report him to authorities on Wikipedia. To check my claims just take a look at edit history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.231.25 (talk) 11:21, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

As Fox52 is continually vandalizing the article I'm willing to translate him some sources from Croatian to English or other language he speaks to avoid constant undos.

Special notice for FALSE reported aircrafts in service with Croatian Air Force.

Since user fox52 continues to ignore all previuous discussions and provided sources, disruptive edditing and still uses disputed and outdated sources I propose permanent ban for him on this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.244.225 (talk) 10:54, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding this dispute. The thread is Persistent dispute at Croatian Air Force. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Update of Croatian Air Force emblem graphic

Since Croatian Air Force dropped "Air Defence" from it's title back in 2018 we should update the emblem graphic to avoid confusion, some Wikipedia users didn't get the news in the past year and a half.

https://www.morh.hr/vlada-usvojila-konacne-prijedloge-zakona-o-obrani-i-sluzbi-u-osrh/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.144.163 (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

https://www.defender.hr/naslovnica-izdvojeno/hrz-i-pzo-mijenja-naziv-u-hrvatsko-ratno-zrakoplovstvo-osrh-se-mogu-nazivati-hrvatska-vojska/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.144.163 (talk) 17:22, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Mil Mi-2

A Mil M-2 was reported being used by the Croatian Air Force in the 1990s registered 9A-HNA, anybody have any reliable sources on this, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

9A is a Croatian civilian register, here you can see that it's unconfirmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.138.5 (talk) 09:47, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

References

CN-235

A comment was made in an edit summary that one of the sources used claimed that Croatia had five CN-235s on order so was not reliavle, this was actually true the order was later defered and they were not delivered. MilborneOne (talk) 14:40, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Croatia was negotiating in 1997 with Turkey about purchase of 5 second hand CN-235M, no deal or order was reached.

There were similar reports about Georgian or Slovakian Su-25, East German MiG-29, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.138.5 (talk) 12:46, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

So clearly when flight was published it was true so cant be used to argue that flight is unreliable. MilborneOne (talk) 12:49, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

There was no order of CN-235M from Turkey, just failed negotiations. Flightglobal listed them in their 1998 issue under Croatian Air Force inventory as 'CN235M 5* trans', thus is unreliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.138.5 (talk) 13:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Flight is a reliable source it correctly listed them as "on order", it makes no mention of them being in "inventory", the fact that they were cancelled doesnt make them wrong they were on order when it went to print. MilborneOne (talk) 13:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

No order was ever made (or canceled), Croatia was at that time still under embargo. CAF was interested in Embraer Tucano but Brazil refused them so they bought 3 second hand Australian PC-9/A. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.138.5 (talk) 13:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately just by taking a look at Flightglobal's World Air Force 2019 shows how unreliable they are. Croatia: listed 12 F-16D on order (actually a failed deal for 10 F-16C and 2 F-16D from Israel back in 2018) with no listings of 6 AT-802 and 6 CL-415 at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.138.5 (talk) 14:52, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

No that's incorrect the F-16 order was cancelled in 2019 as see here, here, & here (which is well after the WAF 2019 came out in Dec. 2018) - FOX 52 (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Deal with Israeli F-16 was blocked by USA on December 6th of 2018 and officially nullified on January 10th of 2019 by the Croatian Government. That doesn't explain wrong type listing (12 F-16D) or lack of listing of AT-802 and CL-415. Thus it shows Flight as unreliable source.

WAF 2019 was available on Dec 2, 2019 - so still no issue, and most of the source(s) only refer to the of 12 aircraft as the F-16C/D variant - FOX 52 (talk) 04:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Incompetence and fabrication of data shouldn't be excused. Guess that's why they also regularly release WAF Corrected. There were many issues with Croatian data published in Flight, i.e. not listing 5 Zlin Z 242L (2016-2018) or listing only 13 Pilatus PC-9M (2016). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.151.153 (talk) 10:21, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• Thats not really relevant, they were right with the CN235 on the information at the time, it never happened so will not be included her, so is not an issue for this article. MilborneOne (talk) 18:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Maybe our discussion on Flightglobal as a reliable source should be moved from CN-235M heading. Other sources cited here also from time to time use Flightglobal as their primary source of information so we end up in a circle of endless edits and undos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.151.153 (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
• Not really flightglobal is a reliable source as proven by the CN235 discussion were they clearly were not wrong. MilborneOne (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I concur with MilborneOne - FOX 52 (talk) 00:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Agree to disagree since I established a pattern of data fabrication by Flightglobal during the last two decades. They are very unreliable but highly quoted source. Examples of non existing types reported: Mi-2, G-4, J-22 and CN-235. Examples of non listed existing types: Z242, PC-9, AT-802 and CL-415. If you two work for Flightglobal you are clearly in conflict of interest since you quote and defend yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.185.105 (talk) 12:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

You need to assume good faith on others here, throwing around accusations of conflict of interest is not a way to sway a discussion, not sure why you cant see that Flight was clearly correct on the CN235. But we have established that Flight is reliable but in this case not needed as the order was cancelled. As am I starting to repeat myself I think we can close the CN235 discussion, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

References

UH-60M

Just a note to people editing the ordered number of helicopters. Two helicopters are to be received by Croatia, however, another two are still waiting approval from the US Congress. This means that no actual order for the other two helicopters has been established yet and that there are still only a total of two helicopters on order, not four. The article can be updated when progress has been made on the second order (Congress approves and Croatia officially passes the order), but this requires a source that explicitly states that an order has been approved.--Estonian1885 (talk) 11:54, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Can we finally amend this to 4, since it's been a while since this was confirmed and all 4 helicopters are already in production and will be delivered early next year. Lucius Baine (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

All 4 UH-60M (2 bought directly from Sikorsky and 2 donated by US Army) totalling 4 in current iventory 2A02:1810:3E21:A500:FD6A:2D35:5D9B:169C (talk) 18:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Two more helicopters arrived

Two more helicopters arrived Black Hawk that they were ordered and now there are 4 of them, so if someone can write it because the page is write-protected https://defbrief.com/2022/12/03/croatia-receives-2nd-black-hawk-pair-from-the-us/ 78.0.36.230 (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2022 (UTC)