Talk:Cumberland (unitary authority)

Page move

I moved Cumberland (unitary authority) to Cumberland (district) because "unitary authority" could also mean Cumberland Council. In fact I'd say the primary meaning of "unitary authority" is the council rather than the territory. It has since been moved back because "district" might imply it is a district in a two-tier arrangement. I don't agree, but I wonder if better naming exists? Here's some suggestions:

• Cumberland (unitary district)
• Cumberland District - currently a redirect to a disambiguation page
• Cumberland District (UK)
• Cumberland - currently an article about the pre-1974 county
• Cumberland (unitary authority area)

Any better ideas? MRSC (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

• @MRSC: While I (weakly) agree with the move I would disagree "unitary authority" primarily means the council its self and many people (though incorrectly) use it to mean the district. I'd say not "Cumberland District" as that is probably not common usage for unitary districts. I'd go with the last suggestion. I'd also probably agree with option 4 (if this is being suggested) and merge with the historic county just like Herefordshire and Huntingdonshire have 1 article even though these were abolished and later brought back, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 27#Districts v historic counties. This isn't like Dorset (district) and Shropshire (district) where you have a district and ceremonial county that co-exist with different boundaries Cumberland was abolished and re-created. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 26#Disambiguation of unitary districts this was also discussed. I'll start a RM in a few days. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

That's great. Thanks. I think either of those options works. MRSC (talk) 05:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

To clarify my "weak" agreement is with you're move last year rather than the move revert. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 12 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The conversation focused mostly on merging different articles. This can be revisited when the merges are carried out, and move(s) are warranted. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 16:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

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• Cumberland (unitary authority) → ?
• Dorset (district) → ?
• County Durham (district) → ?
• Shropshire (district) → ?

– How should unitary authority districts that have the same name as a ceremonial county be disambiguated? Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. No such user (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

• A, "X (district)" namely Shropshire (district)
• B, "X (unitary authority area) namely Shropshire (unitary authority area)
• C, "X (unitary district)" namely Shropshire (unitary district)
• D, "X (unitary authority)" namely Shropshire (unitary authority)
• E, "X District" namely Shropshire District or in the case of Cumberland if not primary for Cumberland District then something like Cumberland District, England.
• F, Date created namely Cumberland (2023–present) which would only really work for Cumberland, Dorset and East Riding of Yorkshire
• G, "X (administrative county)" namely Shropshire (administrative county) which wouldn't work with Cumberland and Dorset due with Dorset the previous non-metropolitan county including Christchurch and with Cumberland the pre-1974 county being administrative (excluding Carlisle)

Background, unitary areas are non-metropolitan districtss that also function as non-metropolitan counties meaning they are both 2nd and 3rd order divisions (assuming you treat England as a country). Some of them like Northumberland are concurrent with a ceremonial county in which case we clearly don't need separate articles but some like Shropshire aren't as Telford and Wrekin is also a unitary district in the ceremonial county of Shropshire and there is debate about if separate articles should exist or not per WP:UKCOUNTIES. Cumberland and Dorset's boundaries date from the creation of the unitary districts while the others like Shropshire were a normal non-metropolitan county with non-metropolitan districts so while the district articles will focus on the area from when the unitary was created they will likely include a small amount of information on the previous administrative county.

Pros and cons:

• A

  Concise and probably a common way of identifying them as many people will only consider the "county" as the ceremonial county

  Ignores they are legally counties as well as districts

• B

  Clear and represents all aspects

  Less concise

• C

  Shorter then previous and acknowledges unitary status unlike A

  Again doesn't clearly acknowledge county status but does districts status

• D

  Commonly known as unitary authorities and unlikely many readers would think this is about the council as it doesn't include the word "Council", in practice the unitary districts themselves are commonly called "unitary authorities" despite the fact that term technically refers to the councils

  Technically incorrect and certainly risk of confusion and encourages us to incorrectly describe them this way

• E

  WP:NATURAL disambiguation like Bolsover District which districts without city/borough status use

  Appears to be less common than even those run by "District" see Unitary authorities of England#Current unitary authorities like South Gloucestershire District, see User:Crouch, Swale/X District so may well not pass NATURAL

• F

  Easily definable time of creation and scope

  As mentioned it would probably only work for 3 of them and dates aren't necessarily going to be known by readers like WP:NCPDAB says "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators, as readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it."

• G

  May be clearer especially for those that existed before becoming unitary districts and only 1 that currently exists

  Ambiguous with previous administrative counties such as with Shropshire the entire county being administrative as well as when pre-1974 unitary equivalences namely county boroughs that covered parts of the ceremonial but weren't in the administrative county, also like above ones this time it ignores them being districts to.

Please indicate you're options by putting A, B, C etc per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves/Archive 32#The utility and accuracy of ranked surveys or even list you're preferred outcomes in order such as "B, A, D, C". @Mapper2345, MRSC, and SilkTork: Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

• Looking at the articles I'm not sure what they are intended to be about - are they about the area itself, or the governing body? At first glance the articles appear to be about the governing bodies, in which case call them after the name of the governing body. If an article already exists on that governing body, then merge with that article to avoid confusion (example: merge Cumberland (unitary authority) with Cumberland Council). If the articles are intended to be about the defined area rather than the governing body, then they would all need to be rewritten, as currently they say "Foo in a unity authority" with sources talking about governance and giving their names typically as "Foo Council" rather than sources taking about them as areas with geographical features, etc. SilkTork (talk) 19:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

  @SilkTork: All the articles listed for renaming are about the area its self and not the council. My points in option D refer to this very thing about the areas being called "unitary authorities" even though that term technically refers to the councils. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 26#Districts councils merges I suggested merging most council articles into the district articles but it was requested that the London boroughs, metropolitan boroughs and unitary authority district be exempt. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging me into this. I think this is only really an issue where an authority needs to be distinguished from the ceremonial county or a previous version of the county (eg Shropshire, E.R. Yorks or Cumberland). I don't think we need to apply this approach to (for example) North Northamptonshire or Westmorland and Furness.

As an aside, I'd be in favour of merging all "Council" pages with the "Area" pages. I don't see what benefit there is in splitting them. It's much better for all information to be in one place.

On the main question, my thoughts are:

A: although technically legally correct, it doesn't feel right to call Shropshire or Durham or (soon) North Yorkshire a district. It's also potentially confusing (isn't Shropshire a County?) and doesn't enlighten the reader very much.

B: although a little inelegant, this has to be the best solution. It describes exactly what Shropshire or Cumberland are. If Council pages were merged into these pages, then the "Area" bit could be dropped.

C: Same issue as A

D: See B. This is fine, but only if the Council pages are merged in.

E: Same issue as A

F: I think this only really works for Cumberland and ER Yorks where there is a historic county and then a break before the new authority comes along. Wouldn't really work for Dorset as there is continuity (even if the structure of the authority has changed).

G: The term administrative county is a specific legal one which really dates to the 1888-1974 period. After 1974 they were called non-metropolitan counties. I'm not sure that the use of 'county' helps when we are trying to describe their administrative function, as county has become such a confused word. Mapper2345 (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we should:

• Merge Dorset (district) into Dorset. This is a needless duplication of articles and the convention in these cases is to have one article on the ceremonial county.
• Merge County Durham (district) into County Durham. As above.
• Merge Shropshire (district) inro Shropshire. As above.
• Move Cumberland (unitary authority) to Cumberland (unitary authority area) as this seems to be the emerging consensus.

We should not merge articles on districts and councils as this would be a category error. A geographic area is not a council. MRSC (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts#Local authorities we don't normally have separate articles and the categories for the councils would stay on the redirects such as Maldon District Council being in Category:Non-metropolitan district councils of England and Category:Local authorities in Essex. The districts are broader and probably cover the council better that having separate article. The exception being Cumberland due to the former county not still existing with different boundaries. Would it not be better to:

• Merge Dorset Council (UK) into Dorset (district).
• Keep County Durham (district) and Durham County Council separate as the latter deals with the pre-2009 council as well.
• Merge Shropshire Council into Shropshire (district) or merge Shropshire County Council into Shropshire Council as like Durham above both councils.
• Merge Cumberland (unitary authority) into Cumberland and keep Cumberland Council. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

That's only really true for non-metropolitan districts in two tier council areas (as in the Maldon example). We rightly have separate articles for pretty much every principal (upper tier) authority. MRSC (talk) 19:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

But while UAs, metropolitan boroughs and London borough generally run services at county as well as district level most readers won't likely know the difference and if they know what say "Cheshire East Council" is they will probably just think its a normal district council and may not even know Cheshire County Council was abolished. Here on Wikipedia to we tend to treat them in the same way as we treat the other districts. Wouldn't a merge of Dorset Council (UK) to Dorset (district) as well as Cheshire East Council to Cheshire East etc with the exception of the likes of Nottingham City Council where there is no separate article on the district make sense. That would solve the issue of duplication. And additional reason for merging the UAs is what I pointed out above that the term "unitary authority" often (incorrectly) refers to the district rather than council meaning merging would reduce confusion as well. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with MRSC's proposals on Dorset, Cumberland, Shropshire etc. For the reasons set out above, I really don't think describing Dorset, Durham, Shropshire etc as a district makes any sense. It is confusing and misleading. Mapper2345 (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I am relaxed on whether there are separate pages for councils. It's not a big issue. Mapper2345 (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

In what way is it misleading? The council articles are misleading as having a council article doesn't cover an entire district. It covers a political makeup and how they work. Nothing to do with the districts which are an entire different entity.

Take for instance, City of Colchester, it covers the area around Colchester whole Colchester City Council covers the political makeup and council itself. A district is different to a council like a town and civil parish is different to a city and unparished area.

Durham is distinct given it has two meanings, the district and the county (which includes Hartlepool Stockton and Darlington) but not the district which covers Durham Chester le Street Consett and Peterlee among other settlements.

The county is one for the districts that form the county and the district is for the area governed from Durham itself which Stockton Hartlepool and Darlington aren't part of.

Same with Shropshire (Shrewsbury Oswestry Ellesmere Whitchurch and Church Stretton form one district) Telford and Wrekin form another both seperate from each other. While Shropshire is the county and district is for the part governed from Shrewsbury but not includes Telford).

It's quite easy enough to distinguish, it just gets made complicated by others who choose not to try and understand or complicate matters by making absurd suggestions.

It's no different to Cheshire, four Unitary areas and one county Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester, Halton and Warrington. Easy enough to remember, again with Lincolnshire, East Lindsey West Lindsey Boston, North Kesteven South Kesteven, South Holland, Lincoln, North East Lincolnshire and North Lincolnshire (both unitary areas but part of Lincolnshire for ceremonial purposes)

Unitary areas are districts or a county (If you assume if for Rutland, Bristol and Herefordshire which are both counties and unitary areas

DragonofBatley (talk) 17:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Categories

Erm Cumberland has nothing to do with Essex, could someone remove that category. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 23:21, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

It was a link with a missing colon. Rcsprinter123 (report) 12:54, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Photos in lead

Could we add a mountain and/or a lake, please, to better represent the range of the area? PamD 05:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Dubious

"In comparison to the historic and former administrative county of Cumberland that existed before 1974, the district covers 77% of its area (excluding Penrith area) and 90% of its population". The administrative county of Cumberland did not include Carlisle (which had 25% of the population of the county at large in 1971). This sentence needs to be reworked based on a source or removed. MRSC (talk)

@MRSC: I've deleted the word "administrative" and just kept "historic county". It seems the VOB treats the administrative county to include Carlisle. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)