Talk:Husum Red Pied

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to retain the new title, and no consensus for any particular title proposed here; thus, reverting to the old title (Danish Protest Pig), which was the last stable title. If a different title is still desired, please reinitiate discussion. The other articles mentioned here were not part of this move request, so no action taken there. Dekimasuよ! 02:02, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

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Danish Protest pig → Danish Protest Pig – The article was moved without discussion to its present title. On Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014 it was requested to examine some on a case by case basis. The Danish Protest Pig is one of them. Within the article there is no Engish source for "Danish Potest pig". "Danish Protest Pig" is a literal translation of a nickname ("Protestschwein") of the breed Rotbuntes Husumer (ref.: FAO). PigeonIP (talk) 12:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

possible titles

• Danish Protest Pig
  • google books: Danish Protest Pig (the same source also calls it Husum Red Pied)
• Husum Red Pied (google book search)
• Husum (pig)
  • source: Genetic conservation of domestic livestock (google bks)
• Rotbuntes Husumer
  • source: FAO DAD-IS
  • native nicknames: Husumer Protestschwein, Rotbuntes Husumer Protestschwein, Dänisches Protestschwein

--PigeonIP (talk) 12:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Husum pig and Husumer swine are possibilities also.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support all:

"Danish Protest pig" to Danish Protest Pig,

• Weak support to

"Philippine Native chicken" to Philippine Native Chicken,

"Swabian-Hall swine" to Swabian-Hall Swine,

"Arapawa pig" to Arapawa Pig and

"Forest Mountain pig" to Forest Mountain Pig as per WP:UCRN.

Proud capitalized Chicken and Pigs one and all :)

Perhaps they can proposed together

Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

no they can't. That is not a formal request. There is only one source for the "Protest Pig", that also uses "Holstein (pig)". It is to decide, if that is enough. The (German) Zoo Hannover even choose the name red pied german saddleback pig. This decision has to be done, deliberately. WP seams to set standards with that breed and is often quoted.

But I will do some others... The last was the German Black Pied (or better German Black and White). Again, no formal request. --PigeonIP (talk) 15:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

PigeonIP, fun and games.

I'm curious, when you say "I will do some others" can I ask how many RMs you plan to drag this out too. All the proposed moves presented on this page are already on the "formal request" mentioned above, (Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014). In this light I don't really understand why this discussion is here at all. As it is here, I can't see why other RMs can't also be repeated here so as to move things on to conclusion.

I have removed the "discussion" heading that you placed above my first comment in this thread.[1] You have presented your view that my additions aren't valid. The text was transferred here within hours of the start of the thread with a content that I propose can be up for discussion. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:15, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for supporting, but again: this is not just a formal request. This request is about: what is the best title for this article? Therefore a discussion is well required.

There are up to 8 possible names (or even more). "Protest Pig" may be the one with the most telling name, but I fear that that is a literal translation and we are setting standards with that! Stockman/breeders may have choosen "Danish/Husum Protest Swine" or "Husum Red Pied" or "German Red Pied" or "Red Pied German Saddleback". I can't find a good source, that is not a translation or relays on wikipedia... The others I was speaking of are German black pied (cattle) that may be the German Black and White (Black Pied was not crossed with Holstein, it is another breed) and the Black Pied Dairy cattle, that was moved multiple times – every time unreferenced. --PigeonIP (talk) 21:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

additional comment: Danish Protest Pig is least desirable to me. But it is the name the author choose. Depending on sources all are as good as the other.

"Danish" Protest Pig or Swine may be misleading. The breed was not developed in Denmark. I'd personally prefer "Husum Red Pied" (= "Rotbuntes Husumer") or "Red Pied German Saddleback", because it is the red pied subbreed of the German Saddleback. But the "Protest Swine"-name is a "telling" one and may be better remembered by readers. Remains "Pig" or "Swine". "Pig" has a source, "Swine" not. "Danish Protest" has a source, "Husum Protest" not... --PigeonIP (talk) 22:15, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Quote from: Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014

"* Danish Protest pig → Danish Protest Pig".

Quote from last edit: "This request is about: what is the best title for this article?"

Quote from WP:RM: "Requested moves is a process for requesting the retitling (moving) of an article, template, or project page on Wikipedia."

Comment: If any editor has other suggestions with regard to a name improvement then reasoned comments can clearly be presented. These may be best put forward on the basis of policy and guideline.

Evaluation:

"Danish Protest Pig" gets "About 10,400 results"

"Red Pied German Saddleback" gets "About 3 results"

"Husum Red Pied" gets "About 152 results"

"Husum Pig" gets "6 results"

"Husumer Schwein" gets "About 7,020 results"

"Rotbuntes Husumer" actually gets "About 42,200 results" but listings read "Rotbuntes Husumer Schwein" or "Rotbuntes Husumer Protestschwein". Its not English and, in any case, "Pig" or "Protest Pig" also gets mentioned.

Quote from PigeonIP, "Don't make up your own names".[2]

There are five similarly formed RMs that are now repeated in this submission. They all relate to single replacements of capitalization by SMcCandlish. One letter of capitalization was removed in each case and this was done in the context of the WP:RM instruction "be bold". Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The question of whether "Danish" should be dropped is a legitimate matter to discuss, as is (elsewhere) whether "Black Pied" should be "Black and White"; they're separate questions (WP:COMMONNAME questions) from the simpler ones raised in the RMs I opened earlier.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question, on actual proposed move: What do reliable sources in English use? And I mean very pertinently reliable ones, like breed registry/pedigree organizations, agricultural agencies, etc.? Husum pig would be WP:CONCISE and WP:NATURAL, but seems to fail WP:COMMONNAME (see stats above). "Danish Protest [p|P]ig" seems to be a made-up translation of Protestschwein, and it's high search results may well be due to WP's own influence. If we're going to use a translation, we could favor Husumer swine, since Husumerschwein is very common in the native German, it's shorter, and it doesn't falsely imly that the pigs are actually from Denmark. Protest Pig or Protest pig could work, but we'd need a preponderance of authoritative reliable sources capitalizing "Pig" to use the former. Husum Red Pied (which would be Husum Red Pied pig, if Talk:Russian Black Pied#Requested moves proceeds as proposed) fails WP:CONCISE, as long as Husum pig is WP:PRECISE enough. Rotbuntes Husumer, etc., all fail WP:USEENGLISH.

  Oppose the others, which were not properly included in the RM anyway: Philippine Native Chicken, Swabian-Hall Swine, Arapawa pig, Forest Mountain pig. At least one of these (the last) could be affected by another RM, Talk:Asturian Mountain#Requested move. The species in these should not, per MOS:CAPS & WP:NCCAPS, be capitalized unless reliable sources demonstrate that the species is universally included as part of the formal breed name. Half the disputation going on in these RMs is apoplexy about the very idea of including the species name even uncapitalized with the breed name at all, much less capitalizing it as such; doing so is, ergo, highly controversial and requires unusually reliable sources, e.g. a preponderance of breed registries and the like (not just people's blogs) all capitalizing them this way, in running prose (many of the searches above are netting capitalized examples from headings, where most sources use title case and would capitalize it no matter what in that special context, and they don't seem to reflect cases of usage without the species name included). These others needs to be individually discussed and sourced in their own RMs. It's fairly likely that Forest Mountain Pig and Swabian-Hall Swine are correct, Philippine Native Chicken seems less likely. Arapawa pig isn't a breed at all, it's a landrace, and can't be Arapawa Pig, per MOS:LIFE. (While four piglets have been bred in captivity, there's no source for recognition as an established, standardized breed anywhere.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I applaud the efforts of PigeonIP to sort out the confusion here; actually I applaud any similar efforts by SMcCandlish if he'd only stop pushing a particular pre-determined point of view (as I think he has for a moment actually done here). Some points:

• I don't think there ought to be two move requests open for the same article at the same time; but
• I support a move to Rotbunte Husumer per WP:UE, "Portuguese for Brazilian towns" and WP:NATURAL "Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names", as there doesn't seem to be a widely-used English-language name for this breed (NB, "Rotbunte" not "Rotbuntes", per VIEH and DAD-IS, but fully open to correction on that)
• I don't know how those others got in here, they don't seem to be in PigeonIP's original move request; there seems to be little point in discussing them until the mass revert request is closed. There seems to be particularly little point in discussing Philippine Native Chicken, as that is a redirect to List of native Philippine chicken breeds.

Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers: title Rotbuntes Husumer is singular (TGRDEU, TGRDEU is the German equivalent to DAD-IS); Rotbunte Husumer is plural (with the noun marker "das": "das Rotbunte Husumer Schwein" (VIEH) is singular, as well) --PigeonIP (talk) 18:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

My first intention was to go for Rotbuntes Husumer as well. We do have reliable sources for that. --PigeonIP (talk) 16:08, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reclassified as stub

The WikiProject classification for Danish Protest Pig was Start-class. It has been reclassified as Stub-class per request.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:10, 13 July 2016 (UTC)