Talk:David Rodríguez (footballer, born 1986)

Requested move 17 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 22:41, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

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• David Rodríguez Sánchez → David Rodríguez (footballer, born 1986)
• David Rodriguez (soccer) → David Rodriguez (soccer, born 2002)

– WP:COMMONNAME for both is "David Rodríguez", disambiguate to new standard for footballers. Ortizesp (talk) 13:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. 2pou (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 12:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment articles should be located at David Rodríguez (footballer) and David Rodriguez (soccer). This is the COMMONSENSE interpretation of the recent RFC when there are just 2 articles; we can hatnote between them per WP:TWODABS. GiantSnowman 12:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I'd Support this alternative, although I'm not certain what the consensus is on this.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
    • This is the first RM AFAIK where this situation has been discussed - so let's create the consensus! GiantSnowman 07:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support move to David Rodríguez (footballer) and David Rodriguez (soccer) per Snowman.--Bob not snob (talk) 08:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support move to David Rodríguez (footballer, born 1986) and David Rodriguez (soccer, born 2002) as proposed by Ortizesp. Robby.is.on (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Relisting comment: This appears to be the RfC that is referenced above: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#RfC: Does WP:ENGVAR suffice for disambiguating footballers from soccer players?
However, the closing comment indicates the parenthetical disambiguators (footballer) and (soccer) should be supplemented by the subject's nationality, in this case David Rodríguez (Spanish footballer) and David Rodriguez (Mexican soccer player). There appears to be a local consensus agreed upon here (I would have moved had the RfC not been brought up), but is this going against accepted norms? Am I looking at the correct RfC? Courtesy pings @Ortizesp, GiantSnowman, and Bob not snob: -2pou (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

That RFC did not cover cases like this where there are only 2 articles. GiantSnowman 17:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the RFC didn't cover those cases. But of the nine or so people involved in the RFC at least five (King of Hearts, Macosal DrKay, Granger, me) clearly stated their opinion that "soccer" and "footballer" weren't sufficient for disambiguation. Robby.is.on (talk) 18:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Even before the RFC, guideline WP:NCSP said to disambiguate with nationality when there was more than one footballer/soccer player. The RFC merely reaffirmed that nationality should still be added, even if one person was a "footballer" and the other a "soccer player"—Bagumba (talk) 07:15, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support move to David Rodríguez (footballer, born 1986) and David Rodriguez (soccer, born 2002) as proposed by Ortizesp. Many users in the recent RFC made the solid point that "(soccer)" and "(footballer)" aren't enough to disambiguate if there's two (either could easily refer to the other). Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The way the RFC is worded, it clearly does cover cases with only two articles. The words "soccer" and "footballer" alone are not adequate disambiguation. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support as proposed. My RfC question #1 specifically dealt with the case of two articles, so if the closer TonyBallioni meant to make a distinction between two vs. more than two articles he would have stated it explicitly. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support with nationality disambiguator, moving to David Rodríguez (Spanish footballer) and David Rodriguez (American soccer player). Per guideline WP:NCSP: If the footballers have different nationalities, use their nationality in the disambiguation; this is preferred over the birth year, when possible. The soccer player plays in the US and has played for the US U17 team, so "American" is most appropriate.—Bagumba (talk) 07:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect, year of birth is always preferred to nationality given nationality is fluid. GiantSnowman 07:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

It's contrary to the existing NCSP guideline.—Bagumba (talk) 07:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think nationality is the best disambiguator here because one of them is a dual-citizen, in other cases like this it might work.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. My preferred approach is to disambiguate by nationality if there are relatively few footballers and all of them have unambiguous, distinct nationalities, and by year otherwise. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Bagumba, please actually read the NCSP guideline on this sport, which says to "use the most conclusive" of nationality, YOB, or position. Where does it say that nationality is preferred over YOB? I assure you from oh, I dunno, making 400,000 edits over the past 14 years in this field that nationality is not the preferred method of disambiguation. GiantSnowman 09:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

You weren't a fan of nationality at the last RFC either, but your rationale was different there. The ordered criteria list at NCSP for football gives the impression of preference. However, I can respect others' concern that the player in the US could be unclear if they are a dual citizen.—Bagumba (talk) 13:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Year of birth is better than nationality for footballers because footballers often move between clubs in different countries and that can cause confusion.--Bob not snob (talk) 06:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

• Move to David Rodríguez (footballer) and David Rodriguez (soccer) (do not move the aforementioned page) respectively since the use of "footballer" and "soccer" per WP:NCSP#Association football (soccer) already assumes/declares the subjects' nationalities ... and since the disambiguators fall in line with the guideline referenced. (If there was intent to update that guideline, it never happened or has yet to happen; I'm going by the way the guideline is written.) Steel1943 (talk) 18:26, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

  Per below, I have ... how they say ... "No dog in this fight". Steel1943 (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Steel1943: The guideline has indeed been updated, see footnote [b]. It mandates David Rodríguez (footballer, born 1986) and David Rodriguez (soccer, born 2002). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:00, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

  @King of Hearts: Any way those footnotes could be fully integrated into the section? The footnotes are rather misleading because ... they add "fine print" to the guideline and almost contradicts the way the guideline is currently written. Footnotes usually point to why something is the way it is, not almost full-on changes the meaning of the text where it is located. Steel1943 (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

  I couldn't find a good way to integrate the footnote, but I've revised point one to clarify that (footballer) or (soccer) is to be used if there is only one player of association football, regardless of what they call the sport. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.