Talk:Bod Mellor

Possible Controversy w/ Dawn Mellor

I'm not a frequent Wikipedia user by any means but I do know:

Recently (last 12 hours) information has been posted to Twitter showing that Dawn Mellor had used the name Tippy Rampage and requested non-binary pronouns for the past four years as a Goldsmiths mentor. In addition, it is public record that Mellor used the name 'Tippy Rampage' as a name for a 'persona'

It is alleged that Mellor's chosen identity at Goldsmiths was not sincere, and instead her persona, used as a way to 'adopt' a pretend non-binary identity to gather material for an upcoming book on gender identities. Beyond basic honesty issues there is concern about how trans students at the university confided in her, and how she will use that information to construct her book - this is reminiscent of Janice Reynold's dishonest interviews when writing The Transsexual Empire.

This may turn into a news story or a significant matter, and may result in changes to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.123.182 (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• Added to article. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 01:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect name and prounouns

I am the subject of this page. My name used to be Dawn Mellor . I am now called Bod Mellor and my pronouns have been they/them for some years. I have no wish to change or add to the other communally produced information which I have never personally contributed to previously or know anyone who has. I do however request the name and pronouns be changed to Bod Mellor and they/them as this page is often referenced on other websites some of which I have already written to and am in the process of changing also. Please advise best way to Proceed. Bod Mellor Aboynamedsue51 (talk) 14:29, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• Aboynamedsue51 Pronouns changed throughout article, except in direct quotes. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 01:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
• Aboynamedsue51 As you can see below, there is a page move request. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 16:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 24 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 09:44, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Dawn Mellor → Bod Mellor – Subject has requested the change on the article talk page, made the alteration to their name using deed poll and it has been reflected in The Tate as shown within the article. Proposing a name change to Bod Mellor with a redirect of Dawn Mellor to the new article name space makes sense and is easy to accomplish and relatively noncontroversial with no harm done to the article itself. Wanted to get community consensus on the move in case I have overlooked anything. ARoseWolf 16:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

• Of note, the original proposer is WomenArtistUpdates and there is an ongoing discussion found on the WiR project talk page. --ARoseWolf 16:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

• Move per usual policy in such cases. It would be useful to know if the subject positively objects to recording the previous name somewhere at the start; it minimizes confusion if they do not. Johnbod (talk) 17:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I apporove of this request to move/ redirect the page from my dead name to a new page under my legal name Bod Mellor. Thankyou Aboynamedsue51 (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Aboynamedsue51 The specific question to you is do you have an objection to the article starting with "Bod Mellor" (born 1970 and previously working under the name "Dawn Mellor") is a British painter...? The reason for this is that there has been coverage of your career under the name Dawn Mellor. Having that old name in the article will minimize confusion and inform the reader. Please reply that you do not have any objection if that is the case. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 19:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

My name is Bod Mellor. So I think instead of saying ‘previously working under the name Dawn Mellor’ best to indicate former name by saying ‘previously named Dawn Mellor’ as it was not a name used for work but a name given to me before I changed it . Aboynamedsue51 (talk) 19:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! Johnbod (talk) 20:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

• Move as per MOS:GID. Thanks for asking their preference in how to style their name Johnbod. SusunW (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
• Move: ArtUK uses "Bod", as further evidence of commonly-used name. PamD 20:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
• Move - The Tate source is enough for me. And this isn't related to the move, but if anyone (while looking into this) can find a source for the currently unsourced deed poll mention, that would be helpful. - Whisperjanes (talk) 06:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
• Move. Also, for now at least, I am going to WP:BOLDly remove the second sentence about the name change from the lead; both for BLP reasons (unsourced info in the lead) and because I think it is undue (since the artist is notable for their work, not their transition—clearly, since a good source is proving elusive). Innisfree987 (talk) 18:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
• Move per MOS:GID. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
• Move per MOS:GID. Theredproject (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deed poll

Hi Whisperjanes, I don't think there is ever going to be a citation for the name change by deed poll because (by my reckoning and scant research) it isn't registered anywhere. It is a certified document that can be presented when opening a bank account etc. To make an analogy, in the previous century, if a woman changed her name at marriage, there wouldn't be legal documentation of the name change. In fact, the marriage certificate would have her maiden name. I think you might want to remove the "citation needed" for that information. Thanks for considering this. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi WomenArtistUpdates, thank you for the info! I hope you don't mind if I put your comment in a separate section, just so the Move discussion can stay separate (if you do mind, feel free to move it back). I don't know much about deed polls myself, but if there is no published mention of a deed poll happening, should the mention of a deed poll even be included in the article?

I noticed the "deed poll" mention was added by an IP, and since there is no online published source (at least that I could find) about a deed poll with this name change, I assumed it was either original research or from someone related to Mellor. I wondered if maybe it was mentioned somewhere on social media by Mellor, which is why I added the citation needed. I don't mind taking off the tags, but if sources don't exist, should it simply be removed from the article? I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on this. - Whisperjanes (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

If we are going to follow policy I would think it should be removed. We have sources that do use the new name so it isn't necessary to include unless we can find at least one source that mentions the name change and how it was altered. --ARoseWolf 17:41, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Whisperjanes, Good idea to get this "off topic" item out of the move section. I have been following this and the info about the deed poll name was added to explain the name change (which had been tagged). I think you are correct, it was either the subject or someone closely connected to them that added the deed poll information in the midst of a back-and-forth about the name change. Unfortunately, the subject was involved in a gender identity kerfuffle in 2019, which is noted in the article, and that fact was removed multiple times, again by anonymous user. I think it is important to note the 2021 name change even if it is uncited.

My reading is that some of their students were alarmed/harmed to find out that they might be subject of an art project, but it is also questionable what Mellor's intentions were, and subsequent action (name and pronoun preference) are important. Maybe we leave it off the lede, but leave it in "Personal life", keeping the "citation need" there? I do think there may eventually be documentation in a "reliable source" in a few months. My thinking is that the allegations did happen, and the name change did happen, and the facts and dates inform each other. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Oops sorry all, only just seeing this. I came to the same “remove from lede, leave in body” conclusion and implemented, but I didn’t quite catch the part about allegations and how that relates? If it’s at all controversial material, BLP policy means we have to take it out unless sourced—what we don’t want is to have sources crop up in a few months because it’s in the WP article. WP really should be a “lagging indicator”, to borrow from economics. Unless I’m misunderstanding the backstory? Innisfree987 (talk) 18:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a very appropriate compromise until it is documented in a reliable source. Very much agree with @Innisfree987 that we don't want to be the driving force. --ARoseWolf 18:48, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all! And Innisfree987, the allegations are the last paragraph in the career section, and are well sourced at the moment and (at least from my view) seem to be neutrally-worded. Just for a quick synopsis, the allegations were about Mellor performing as a non-binary character for years as part of their process of creating a series of artworks,[1] which some saw as pretending to be non-binary; Mellor later addressed it and said they are non-binary.

While we're on the topic of the article's body, I'm also wondering if we should take out the June 2021 mention as well, or change it to something like "around June 2021" or "around 2021"? I think "around 2021" can be inferred from when the Tate and other sources started to change the artist's name. I'll change it to that if there are no objections; I feel a bit iffy with leaving it so specific as it's written now, without a source (and I don't want Wikipedia to be accidentally leading other sources to report an exact month if it's possibly incorrect). - Whisperjanes (talk) 19:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, I'm hearing a few different things (or possibly misunderstanding) - should the deed poll be removed and the name change be kept with a citation needed, or should both be kept with a citation needed? I personally think removing the "deed poll" is still best, while we keep the mention of the name change, since the deed poll seems a bit specific at the moment for something unsourced. - Whisperjanes (talk) 19:32, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

My emphasis is about when the subject changed their name and identity, don't care about how. How about if we say "They changed their pronoun preference in 2021." Is that just too wishy-washy to fly? I am not too invested in this and am happy to go with the more experienced opinion. Thank you all for chiming in. I feel like this issue will come up again, conundrum of writing understandable, neutral, chronological prose supported by fact vs. respecting the BLP subject. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes to be clear I am suggesting we remove all unsourced info. Unless the “when” has a source I’m missing, I think it should just say that as of August 2021 (or sooner if the Internet Archive has an earlier screengrab), the Tate lists them as Bod Mellor. It would be great if more were sourceable but alas we cannot always fill in all the blanks we’d like. (Thank you Whisperjanes for the explanation; I just wasn’t sure whether there was more to it than was in the entry.) Innisfree987 (talk) 20:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Hello

I am the subject of this discussion and my name is Bod Mellor. I am trans. I am non binary. I changed my name by deed poll. I am not trying to remove any references to the allegations. The allegations are interesting as a public record of just how messed up the current climate is in multiple ways towards trans and non binary people. What is the issue here? No matter how many times this is discussed it doesn't change the fact that I am trans and that my name is legally Bod Mellor. The more this ping pong discussion goes on the more ridiculous this transphobic nonsense reveals itself to be. If it is more public citations that are needed then more public declarations will be made. I did not set up this wikipedia page and the discussion page here has just become a public record of how transphobia reveals itself in the current culture.

Bod Mellor Aboynamedsue51 (talk) 22:40, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Link here public record of deed poll https://www.instagram.com/p/CTBJlqDoLUp/?utm_medium=copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTBJlqDoLUp/?utm_medium=copy_link Aboynamedsue51 (talk) 00:47, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Aboynamedsue51, I am very empathetic towards the issues you and others have faced in life. I know its difficult. I am sorry that you feel this discussion is an example of transphobia. I can assure you it is not. We have amazing editors here and we all volunteer our time to writing articles on individuals and subjects we believe are notable. The very fact that someone not only felt you are a notable person and your Song, your Life, your Journey is important enough to share with the world on this encyclopedia but then took the time to write this out the best they could and share it as openly as they could while maintaining policy and in keeping with guidelines developed to protect this biography of an incredible person from being vandalized, which happens thousands of times a day, is truly remarkable. I see hundreds of articles being deleted every day. I see hundreds more creations being denied access to main space. What this discussion is, is a collaboration of volunteer editors working together to find a solution for how to make this article on this subject as accurate as we can make it within policy and guidelines. --ARoseWolf 14:04, 26 August 2021 (UTC)