Talk:Death of Tūheitia

ITN

Template:ITN note Dhantegge (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Needs some substantial work

Would anyone like to make a section mentioning the names of all those who spoke at his tangi, and on which days? This article should be about the king's death and funeral, as is the norm for notable deaths Dhantegge (talk) 10:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately I think this article should be merged back into the article on Tūheitia. The only reason to split off from the main article like this is if the section’s content is so large that it would overburden the whole. This article is only longer than it needs to be because of the superfluous section on reactions. Unless major sourcing comes up soon that suggests a lasting independent notability for the event (WP:NEVENTS), Tūheitia’s death should be contextualised within his article, where most readers would benefit from reading about the two topics together. — HTGS (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. There are only two paragraphs about his death. The reactions are not something that needs to be catalogued and can instead be summarised by a secondary source. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. There is enormous precedent for articles about the deaths of monarchs or important figures and their funerals. I could give you about 20 examples off the top of my head. Also, in this case, the tangi of the King was an event just as important as his death. When I created this article, I called it "the death of" initially rather than "death and funeral of" simply because I didn't want to get ahead of myself. But as the time passed, it became clear how incredibly important this was. This was I think a very prominent event. I would not think it was unreasonable to suggest that this was possibly the most prominent national event in New Zealand this year out of everything. This was the first tangihanga of a Māori monarch to be televised, or to be quite the national event in this way. I think (though I might be mistaken) that this was the first death of a Māori monarch in which all government flags were lowered to half mast. Tūheitia's death also represented the growing distance between the Crown and Māori, and the national hui in January had raised his national significance further.

Overall, this was a huge national event of global significance that made the news around the world. We had a lot of good feedback for this article. As for the superfluous reactions - I never intended for that. In my opinion, this page should be devoted mostly to discussing his tangihanga. Dhantegge (talk) 09:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I also think it sends a poor message to Māori readers if articles signficiant to Māori issues keep getting deleted. There are scores of articles of far lesser consequence, such as those about internet culture, that won't recieve this scrutiny. Dhantegge (talk) 09:43, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, we just aren’t here to send good messages to Māori readers. But even more cynically—at least towards our own work—Māori and non-Māori readers alike will not notice whether this topic does or does not have its own standalone article. Those interested in his death and funeral will not be missing out because they read about these events in the context of his whole life.

Note, the importance of the event isn’t what I’m getting at here. Of course we don’t create articles on someone’s death just because they have a royal title (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). But I do believe that we can and should cover this important topic on Wikipedia, but I also believe that we will serve our readers better by folding it into the broader topic of him as a person.

Couple of other notes: 1, I am in no hurry to delete or merge anything; we have time to discuss and we don’t actually have to merge anything right now. 2, I’m not sure what your scope of memory is, but I disagree that Tūheitia’s death has been of more significant than that of his mother. 3, See: Death of Robin Williams, which doubtless gained more sig cov, and better meets NEVENTS than the death (and tangi) of the Kiingi (for better or worse), but which is still covered within the scope of the article for Robin Williams. 4, Another way to read the way things are going is that Tūheitia’s death will have more extensive coverage than the rest of his life and his works; doesn’t that send a poorer message? Of course the extensiveness of this current article really just reflects too much unnecessary detail (do we really need to include the scripture that the Israeli Embassy quoted?) — HTGS (talk) 04:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

There are two paragraphs here about the event itself. It could very easily be covered in Tuheitia. It doesn't matter how televised or globally covered it was, if little can be written with secondary sources the reader is better served with the content being merged into the main article. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, that's besides the point. This was a major event and it deserves its own page.

This page isn't completed yet. There is no good reason to delete it. I struggle to understand why on Wikipedia editors seem in such a rush to delete articles.

Give it another week or two before any decision is made. I want to be given the chance to write about the tangihanga and the significance of the event. Also, putting the reactions on Tuheitia's main page would constitute undue lengtg. Dhantegge (talk) 10:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to add that this page is a fraction of the length of the Death and State Funeral of Elizabeth II. I’m not saying the article has to be particularly long, but that we should follow convention and have a seperate page for a monarch’s death and funeral. And we should understand that Māori issues are chronically underrepresented on Wikipedia, and that having well-sourced pages about events significant to Māori is a way to respond to that. Dhantegge (talk) 10:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

We don't have conventions on whether to have standalone articles on certain events or not. Queen Elizabeth II's article has several content splits because there is just a lot more that can and is written about her. Tuheitia has only this as a content split and is much shorter. The reason we have a separate article for Queen Elizabeth II's funeral, wedding, coronation, flags, royal titles, etc., is because there is not enough room in the main article for all of them.

>And we should understand that Māori issues are chronically underrepresented on Wikipedia, and that having well-sourced pages about events significant to Māori is a way to respond to that

How does having this as a stand alone article as opposed to being part of the main article change that? Traumnovelle (talk) 10:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

That is not beside the point at all. We have articles based on whether we can write enough about them with independent reliable secondary sources.

>This page isn't completed yet.

Then maybe it should be a draft or redirected until it is able to be complete? Just because it gets merged doesn't mean it can't be recreated ever again.

>There is no good reason to delete it.

No one was suggesting deletion.

> I struggle to understand why on Wikipedia editors seem in such a rush to delete articles.

Why were you in such a rush to create this article?

> Also, putting the reactions on Tuheitia's main page would constitute undue lengtg

Correct, which is why neither me nor HTGS suggested that and I instead said they should be summarised by a secondary source. Traumnovelle (talk) 10:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I wasn’t “in a rush” to create this article. This is a topic of deep interest to me, and I wanted to follow convention and create an article for it. As it turned out, the King’s tangi dominated the news for a week and became something of a national phenomenon.

The article is beyond draft level. And you were suggesting deletion…?

Traumnovelle, I should also clarify I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really do not think deleting / merging / redirecting this article would be a good idea. It is too significant an event. Dhantegge (talk) 10:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

What convention did you follow? Traumnovelle (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Just so you know the hiring the train claim fails verification, it isn't mentioned in the reference. The claim about a no-fly zone is incorrect too. The primary source you used states it will have one, you have said it did have one. You need a source that confirms it did actually occur as it is possible it never actually occurred or the reporting was incorrect. This is one of the issues of relying heavily on primary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I've created a formal merge proposal. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:58, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The article has only existed for a week, and is still being significantly expanded. There is also plenty of room for more information; a list of participants (common in royal funeral articles) for example, and the fact that this was first tangihanga of a Māori monarch to be televised, with a source, comparing it to the media coverage of previous tangihanga. So perhaps we can see how it develops over the next week or so and if, when substantially complete, merging it back into Tūheitia would imbalance that article—it looks to me like that would be the case, even at this stage. This is certainly a significant historical event covered nationally and internationally, so meets the threshold of WP:NEVENTS. However there should be a longer summary of the funeral in the Tūheita article, perhaps a couple of paragraphs. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 11:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)