Talk:Declaration of Independence (painting)

Jefferson's foot

Actually, the cited website for this fact is wrong. Examination of the painting in person reveals that Jefferson's foot is not stepping on Adam's foot. The Two dollar bill correctly presents the painting, which began as a miniature in which the feet are clearly presented apart. The whole issue occurs because of the dark colors used for the carpet/ground and the color of the gentlemens' shoes. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Close up of Jefferson and Adams.

Close up of feet.

Went and grabbed some photos of the painting in person, with use of flash to fully illuminate the area of the painting in question. Below is a larger image of the general area, of Jefferson and Adams, and then a close detail of the gentlemen's feet. If you note, while Adam's foot is extremely close to Jefferson's, it is not being stepped upon.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 02:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I will admit that it is possible that this is a myth. I wish there was another possible source to look at. Thanks for the pictures. Do you not feel it is interesting that the foot is so out-of-place in comparision to Jefferson's body? Alex 18:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Jefferson's foot is out of place, if you look at the full body image, you'll see that his hip is pretty much directly above in about the proper spot for where the foot is placed. Likewise, as for really odd foot settings in the painting, look at the pair of feet belonging to, I believe, Mason, behind Adams and Jefferson. His feet are right next to each other, like his legs are squeezed side by side. Now there's some odd feet. However, there is another source to look at, the back of the $2 dollar bill, which is based off of Trumbull's work. Its use of monochrome colors clearly shows the artistic intent to keep the feet separate, as seen in the pictures I posted, as well. If you live near Yale, you can also go to their Art Gallery, and try and see the original. Regretfully, for my bank account, I've actually ordered the most recent biographer of John Trumbull by a Yale historian, to see what it has to say on the matter. Oi! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Ahh very good. I would be interested to see if the biography offered some other unknowns regarding this painting. Thanksf or the work! Alex 04:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Just an update, I received the book on John Trumbull, and it turned out to be less a biography, than a nearly 300 page book covering the overwhelming breadth of his life's artistic works. I read the section on the Declaration of Independence and no mention was made of any attempt to portray the political animosity that existed off and on between Adams and Jefferson. The point was made that Trumbull was intent on replicating the moment artistically, if not factually (i.e., the room is not correct, the chairs are different, there are individuals excluded who did not sign the Declaration, and what not). The one thing that can be said is that Jefferson and Adams were not political enemies at the time of the Declaration, and thus, Trumbull would not have imposed such a thing on a scene where it did not exist. The man apparently traveled hundreds of miles to sit and paint Signers in person for the portrait, which speaks of great dedication.

Another aspect, is that, the history behind the painting is quite interesting! It turns out there are three versions of the Declaration, for example. I'll probably add a lot more content to this article using this source as a reference. For the curious, its John Trumbull by Helen Cooper. Published by Yale University, Art Gallery. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I changed the text of the article to state that it only appears that Jefferson is standing on Adams's foot. I think the painting itself, both the original and the reproduction on the reverse of the $2 bill, is source enough for that? Would seem a similar argument is made for the description of a film's plot having the film itself as a source. After all, you can just look at the painting and see that TJ isn't stepping on JA's foot, if you look closely enough (see above for a zoom in based on a photo of the original painting.) Anyone disagree? 75.70.123.215 (talk) 01:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Second version

Perhaps you should mention that the painting in the Rotunda is actually the second version of the painting. The original is hung at Yale. And the original is of much better quality, I believe.

I do believe you're correct, and I think its a much smaller version, at that. Its something to look into. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong IDs

• According to Irma Jaffe,
• 8. George Clinton should be Stephen Hopkins
• 23. Stephen Hopkins should be John Dickinson
• 46. John Dickinson should be George Clinton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.72 (talk) 01:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Who was not present?

Who in the painting was not actually present at the presentation? Is there a list somewhere? howcheng {chat} 22:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This is covered in "The Historical Value of Trumbull's 'Declaration of Independence'" by John Hazelton, who was an important scholar of the Declaration. This article is online via Google Books and should be used as a reference here, if anyone gets around to it. The painting depicts an event of June 28. Congress did not take attendence, so we don't know exactly who was present, but Hazelton (in his book on the Declaration) did a lot of detective work to figure out who was present on key dates. The most notable person depicted in the painting who was probably not present on June 28 is Benjamin Franklin. —Kevin Myers 18:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

People in the image

It is already done here in the article, but it would be useful if the image itself File:Declaration independence.jpg indicates the people despicted in it. The gadget for annotations, added shortly ago, is ideal for it. File:2009 G-20 Pittsburgh summit.jpg is a good example of how can it work MBelgrano (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 Done Hopefully I dind't mess anyone up. Hluup (talk) 19:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Draft presentation vs. signing

I've thought for awhile that the painting depicts the presentation of the draft, not the actual signing, but I'm having trouble finding any supporting documentation for this. Even the U.S. Capitol Historical Society says it's July 4th (see here). Does anyone have a source that can be cited? Wiki publius (talk) 10:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've solved this. I was reading "The Historical Value of Trumbull's 'Declaration of Independence'", from the link above, and came across this:

Indeed, Trumbull has departed not only " from the usual practice of reporting an act" by making the entire committee advance to the table of the President but (as shown by this Catalogue, etc., and by the keys) has made the committee report on July 4th when in fact they reported on June 28th. - John Hazelton, The Historical Value of Trumbull's - 'Declaration of Independence

I guess the actual title of the painting includes "July 4, 1776", which is where the confusion comes from. Wiki publius (talk) 10:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Trumbull had a lot of fun with some facts...such as the design of the room, which is nothing like the actual location. I believe it was based off a sketch by Jefferson, which was incorrect.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Article title

Per naming conventions for works of art, should this article be moved to Declaration of Independence (Trumbull)? --Another Believer _(Talk) 03:42, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

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47 depicted by Trumbull in his 'Declaration of Independence'

I added 47. 73.85.204.187 (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved Sceptre (talk) 20:07, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

---

Declaration of Independence (Trumbull) → Declaration of Independence (painting) – There are no other notable paintings of the same name, so it is unnecessary to disambiguate the article by the artist's name. Declaration of Independence (painting) currently redirects here as well. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 14:34, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, the painting is so identified with John Trumbull that in this case the artist's association with the work is defining. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:59, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and WP:RECOGNIZABLE. Although many will recognize "Trumbull" as an artist, "painting" will be more recognizable to a greater number, and is WP:PRECISE enough to identify the topic. "Painting" is the more usual qualifier at Category:American paintings. - Station1 (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support. We should be WP:CONSISTENT in our disambiguation of works.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, the original title was Trumbull's Declaration of Independence, renamed to the current name on June 14, 2014 with the comment "standard dabbing". The naming is consistent with MOS:ART/TITLE and other articles about Trumbull's paintings, such as Alexander Hamilton (Trumbull). There is also the potential of articles on Declaration of Independence paintings: File:Writing the Declaration of Independence 1776 cph.3g09904.jpg by Jean Leon Gerome Ferris and File:Signing of Declaration of Independence by Armand-Dumaresq, c1873 - restored.jpg by Charles Édouard Armand-Dumaresq. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 16:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Visual arts has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 14:34, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom and Station1. To my eye, the "artist's name in parentheses" guidance offered by MOS:ART/TITLE is intended to apply to cases where multiple notable paintings share a title. Of paintings titled Declaration of Independence, only Trumbull's has its own article, so I feel that "(painting)" is a sufficiently WP:PRECISE disambiguator. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:21, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Was the signing in August or July?

The second paragraph of current version of Declaration of Independence (painting) says The painting shows the five-man drafting committee presenting their draft of the Declaration to the Congress, an event that took place on June 28, 1776, and not its signing, which took place mainly on July 2nd (emphasis mine). But article Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence says signing of the United States Declaration of Independence occurred primarily on August 2, 1776 (emphasis mine). Which date is correct – July 2nd or August 2nd? —⁠andrybak (talk) 11:09, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed. Thanks for catching that. August 2 is correct. Someone had changed it in good faith last July, now corrected. Station1 (talk) 19:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)