Talk:Deputy First Minister of Wales

Possible move to Deputy First Minister of Wales

This article & First Minister for Wales, should be moved from for to of. GoodDay (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Please provide the evidence you have discovered for your claim. Daicaregos (talk) 15:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The FM is called of, thus DFM should be too. It looks rather silly 'First Minister of Wales' & 'Deputy First Miniter for Wales'. GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Without reliably sourced evidence it is only your opinion, which is not sufficient reason for a page move. Please provide the evidence you have discovered for your claim. Daicaregos (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Holy smokers, I can't find sources for either Deputy First Minister for Wales or Deputy First Minister of Wales. What I'm finding are First Minister of Wales and Deputy First Minister. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. IMHO the roles are "First Minister" and "Deputy First Minister". However, I think we should decide on the page name for First Minister for Wales before we decide on this one. Daicaregos (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Whatever's decided at the FM, should be adopted here & at Wales. -- GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Shall I move this article to Deputy First Minister of Wales? now that we've got First Minister of Wales? -- GoodDay (talk) 08:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The move to First Minister of Wales cannot be considered stable. I suggest we wait a week to see if any changes are made, and/or if any other editors engage. Daicaregos (talk) 09:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 09:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It's been over a week now & the FMofW article hasn't contested. Shall we move this article? GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I have no preference for either name. My research suggests that the correct title is Deputy First Minister. If this is correct, the purpose of the remainder of the page name would be only to disambiguate from other Deputy First Ministers. The only other Deputy First Ministers on Wiki are Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and Deputy First Minister of Scotland. Unless those titles are also for disambiguation purposes this page should be named Deputy First Minister, its correct title. A hatnote to direct to the other pages would be enough. What did your research reveal? Daicaregos (talk) 19:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I found a source for 'Deputy First Minister of Wales', [1]. GoodDay (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Request for move

Deputy First Minister for Wales to Deputy First Minister of Wales - Its superior office, is the First Minister of Wales. Anglesey calls it Deputy First Minister of Wales [2] and [3]. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• Weak support—the Assembly website [4] doesn't seem to use anything other than "Deputy First Minister" though. 137.205.222.193 (talk) 20:13, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• OpposeThis page move appears to be based on a single, poor source. High quality sources (National Assembly for Wales, BBC, Western Mail, etc) give the title as Deputy First Minister. No evidence is given that "Its superior office, is the First Minister of Wales.", only opinion. The Government of Wales Act 2006 defines the office as "First Minister". The case for a move has not yet been made, although I could be persuaded.Daicaregos (talk) 20:41, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Then why is the other office at First Minister of Wales? -- GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support, as the nominator. GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

comment

From what I can see the First Minister did change to "of" but in the main either of or for Wales is not used in ordinary talk. I suggest that if we need to have it in full its "of" but otherwise it should just be first or deputy first. --Snowded ^TALK 01:28, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Leaving out of Wales and/or for Wales, for both offices, would require an RM of First Minister & Deputy First Minister to First Minister (disambiguation) & Deputy First Minister (disambiguation). I'm not certain if editors at the Northern Ireland & Scotland 'counter part' articles, would agree to this. GoodDay (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

First Minister (Wales), Deputy First Minister (Wales).... ?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I would support both those changes. Daicaregos (talk) 10:22, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Good idea - support --Snowded ^TALK 10:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

First Minister of Wales & Deputy First Minister of Wales, is best. It's consistant with their Scottish & Northern Irish counter-parts, per office of place. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

However, if we had the others moved to First Minister (Scotland), Deputy First Minister (Scotland) & First Minister (Northern Ireland), deputy First Minister (Northern Ireland)? Then Ghmyrtles idea, would be acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

GoodDay, GoodDay, GoodDay. Have you researched any of those titles to discover what their official, lawful names actually are (rhetorical question, of course). Having the pages at their correct names is far more important than some spurious consistency. Daicaregos (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

They're the FM of Wales & DFM of Wales. Naturally, if you check Welsh sources covering events 'within Wales', they're gonna be called FM & DFM. GoodDay (talk) 17:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I was referring to the First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers of Scotland and Northern Ireland. You appear to be advocating moving page names without knowing the actual names of those subjects. As for the contention that only Welsh sources call the First and Deputy First Ministers those names without the suffix "of Wales": what other sources have you discovered to back up your claim? Or is it just "GoodDay's opinion"? Daicaregos (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't come across any 'outside Wales' sources, that call the Welsh officials First Minister & Deputy First Minister. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I suggest the Government of Wales Act 2006? Daicaregos (talk) 20:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I've found an outside source. The First Minister of Scotland's letter to then incoming UK Prime Minister David Cameron. In the last paragraph, he says "First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers of Wales and Northern Ireland". GoodDay (talk) 20:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

OK so GoodDay has no objection to Ghmyrtle's suggestions other than a desire for consistency. Well we can action it here and he can go and make the suggestions elsewhere. --Snowded ^TALK 18:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

We should have an RM on the 5 articles-in-question, simultaniously (noteing the NI offices are in 1 article). GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Its come up here, lets just fix it per the proposal. If you then want to raise it elsewhere fine --Snowded ^TALK 19:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

If it's rejected in the other places, these 2 articles will be out of sync. It would be much easier to move this article to Deputy First Minister of Wales, then attempt moving multiple articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

You are in a minority of one in insisting on consistency. Otherwise we have a range of options all of which are correct so its a matter of editor views and so far three have agreement. Intend to hold out to be outvoted? --Snowded ^TALK 20:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Vote if ya want. I don't fully understand the resistance to a simple page move, that doesn't deny this is the DFM of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

In the spirit of collaboration, I accept Ghmyrtle's compromise. GoodDay (talk) 18:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to contact the talkpages of the other FM, DFM pages. GoodDay (talk) 20:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC) I've opened discussion at those other articles-in-question. I've also requested more input from Wikipedia:WikiProject United Kingdom. -- GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Please don't modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in new section on this talk page. No further edtis should be made to this section.

Request for move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for move. GoodDay (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

---

Deputy First Minister for Wales → Deputy First Minister of Wales – Moswento has provided 4 sources (The Times, The Independent, The Guardian & The Financial Times) here, which support a move to Deputy First Minister of Wales. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Nothing has changed since previous attempts to rename this page. The position's legal title (when it exists, which it currently does not) appears to be Deputy First Minister: see the Government of Wales Act 2006, Part 2, 45 (1) states “There is to be a Welsh Assembly Government, or Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, whose members are— (a) the First Minister or Prif Weinidog (see sections 46 and 47)”. The Welsh Government use Deputy First Minister, not Deputy First Minister of Wales or Deputy First Minister for Wales, as does walesonline (usually - although they occasionally use Deputy First Minister for Wales and Deputy First Minister of Wales) and The Guardian style guide gives “first minister (Scottish parliament, Welsh assembly, Northern Ireland assembly)”. As far as I can tell, of Wales, or for Wales is used in order to disambiguate. Moving this page from one incorrect page name to another incorrect page name is pointless, and would cause numerous redirects. Daicaregos (talk) 12:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You've asked for a primary source. I've provided 4 secondary sources, which are of high quality. Secondary sources are prefferd on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 12:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The primary source should be preferred if they came up with the name. Which is why authors get annoyed when their book titles are characters are named incorrectly by secondary sources. FruitMonkey (talk) 13:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• If the legal title is "Deputy First Minister" simpliciter, what would be wrong with Deputy First Minister (Wales) rather than argue about an "of" or a "from"? Bencherlite^Talk 21:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Nothing (see above). But, really ... what's the point? The office does not exist. IMHO, whomever chooses to change the page name (here), then the next page name (to First Minister (Wales)), then the next (to First Minister (Scotland), then the next (to Deputy First Minister (Scotland) etc., etc., etc, should be tasked with ensuring each and every redirect is corrected. And who's to say agreement will be found on those articles for page renames anyway - consistency may be elusive. But I ask again ... what's the point? Daicaregos (talk) 22:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Re-directs are allowable. GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That's acceptable. My main reason for arguing of, is because we've got First Minister of Wales. However, I'd have no problems with Deputy First Minister (Wales), particularly if we had First Minister (Wales). GoodDay (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Abolishment?

Was this office discontinued today? if so Jones is no longer the current holder, but rather the last holder. GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Carwyn Jones announced his cabinet appointments today (see here). The office of Deputy First Minister was not among them. It hasn't been abolished. It hasn't been discontinued. It just isn't. Daicaregos (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not a statutory office. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)