Talk:Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic

RSFSR

It was never part of Russian SFSR. From the quoted source:

Совнарком РСФСР не признал Донецко-Криворожскую Республику ни самостоятельной республикой, ни частью Российской Федерации.

[1]--Hillock65 18:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand

входила в состав РСФСР.

[2]--Kuban Cossack 18:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, we clearly have a conflict of sources - Soviet against modern Ukrainian. Any suggestions as to how to resolve this or should we tag the article? --Hillock65 19:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Make both assertions, I think the term short-lived is enough, it might have been the case that de facto it was part of the RSFSR even though Lenin and Trotsky did not wish for it to be. --Kuban Cossack 13:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This is new. There was dissent to the will of Lenin and Trotsky?! Sounds surreal.--Hillock65 14:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I highlighted the quote below. --Kuban Cossack 19:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is another source in addition to the one above that it was never recognized:

Совнарком РСФСР не признал Донецко-Криворожскую Республику ни самостоятельной республикой, ни частью Российской Федерации. А в телеграммах представителям СНК в Украине г.Орджоникидзе и В.Антонову-Овсиенко В.Ленин требовал сурового соблюдения суверенитета Советской Украины, невмешательства в деятельность ЦИК Советов Украины, тактичности в национальном вопросе, заботы об укреплении сотрудничества Украинской и Российской Советских республик.

So, it's 2:1 for now. [3]--Hillock65 19:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Dates

The aforementioned source states that the republic ceased to exist by may of 1918 ... not 1919 as it says in the article.

Однако к маю 1918 немецким войскам удалось захватить территорию Д.-К. с. р. и республика прекратила своё существование

I changed the correct date.--Hillock65 19:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

FLAG

Wrong flag! This ia a myth. Black-blue-red flag is actually inverted flag of "International Movement of Donbass" (Интердвижение Донбасса) of 1980-1990. Real flag of Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic is RED FLAG of RSFSR and unofficial flag is small white-green-black on red flag. Look here: [DKR-flag again!]. Text in russian, look at the picture. Or check russian version of this article(try to translate via google)ИринаЯ (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk

Why is name of the republic "Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic"? Donetsk has other name at that time! Donets - is name of river and ridge!!! No k!--Юе Артеміс (talk) 07:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

In fact then Donetsk was called Yuzivka (Yuzovka) and is called Donetsk only since 1961 (It was Stalin since 1924 and Stalino after that). Someone please change the name of the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.24.87 (talk) 11:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

It was named after the Donets river, not the modern city of Donetsk, which, as you point out, wasn't called that then. --Nizolan (talk) 21:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC) — Actually, I take it the point here is that it should be called the Donets–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic, without the k. While there is some merit to that idea, and it seems to be the term used in some older sources, by now the usage of "Donetsk–Krivoy Rog" is so overwhelmingly preponderant that there would be no reason to change it per WP:COMMONNAME. --Nizolan (talk) 21:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a little comment. That republic was directly named after the Donets Basin, not river, ridge or city. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 13:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

The basin is only called that in the first place because of the Donets river so it's a moot point. Either way, nothing to do with the city, as you say. --Nizolan (talk) 01:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Flag again

Black-blue-red flag has not been the flag of Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic.

1. Soviets usually have used red flags sometimes with letters or symbols (e.g. flags of Taurida Soviet Socialist Republic, Odessa Soviet Republic, Hungarian Soviet Republic and many others). There is some information that the flag was red with white-green-black part (because of Bakhmut colours) but they are disputed. On the photo from Lugansk people's deputies council some flag can be seen and it definitely does not look like a tricolor.
2. This flag is evidently similiar to the flag of the Russian empire which was being used by the White movement in that times. So usage of such a flag by Soviets during the ongoing Civil war is unlikely to be possible.
3. Black-blue-red is likely to be created by Interdvizhenie Donbassa (Интердвижения Донбасса) in late 1980s early 1990s [4][5], and is based on the national Russian flag with usage of black colour instead of white as symbol for coal. --Dƶoxar (talk) 18:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

See also - too many items

Is it advantageous to list pages linkied already in the text?Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic ?

The referenced (1) name is Donets–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Of corse its name is Donets-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic, because it was named after the Donets Basin, but not Donetsk. At that time the city was called Yuzovka (Russian: Юзовка). So, it couldn't be named after it. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 22:48, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

@Ιγκόρ: Please read the earlier discussions on this talk page. We are going by WP:COMMONNAME. If you wish to present arguments based on reliable sources for any moves, start an RM instead of going against WP:CONSENSUS (that is, the article has stood under the "Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" for years) without being seriously discussed or moved, meaning that has become the official WP:TITLE by default. Making WP:BOLD moves means that you follow the WP:BRD Wikipedia protocol, not edit war moves. This is Wikipedia, and "of course" arguments are a breach of WP:NOR. Personally, I don't care what the outcome is either way, but I am here in the capacity of a steward. Please engage in discussion and do not resort to WP:BATTLEGROUND tactics. I will now ask of you that you self-revert the move as a sign of good faith as I have no interest in engaging in a move war with you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

You do not mind that you're defending the name, which appeared only due to the fact that someone badly knows Russian and the history of the region? Even the capital of the state wasn't in Yuzovka. Here is an article from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. As one can see, they use Donets. Here (p. 389 & 390) is a book called Political Archives of the Soviet Union. They also use Donets. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 07:57, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

No, I "don't mind". The article has existed under the mistaken title for years, and Wikipedia is a long term project, not a race. RM's only last for a week (or less), and there is transparency in the process. I would certainly support the move. Given that this is one of the many articles in Wikipedia that hardly gets traffic, it is best that there is clear evidence for the WP:TITLE and consensus for future editors to refer to should anyone decide to move the article again. It isn't simply an extraneous formality, it's a matter of record as to the correct name. Note, also, that the current title you've moved it to is incorrect accordeing to MOS. It should be "Donets–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" (with an en-dash), not "Donets-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" (with a standard hyphen). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:02, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

You're absolutely right about using an en-dash. I didn't notice this when I moved the article. Now, I'd like to ask you whether one should also create "Donets–Kryvyi Rih Soviet Republic" (Ukrainian varian of the name) as a redirect or not? There is already one without a dash. Also what should we do with the one which is with a standard hyphen? — Ιγκόρ (talk) 08:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The subject of the article is such a footnote in history in the Anglophone world that I'm not particularly fussed about the Ukrainian rendition of the name as being of significance for redirects. Given, however, that redirects can be useful for the reader (in as much as search strings in English are likely to take several forms), and that such redirects would not be misleading, I'd say that it would be useful to have the Ukrainian variant used in texts such as those written by Malgosci, Subtelny, and Kuzio. I would also say that a variant without a hyphen would be called for (i.e., "Donetsk Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" already exists, but "Donets Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" and "Donets Kryvyi Rih Soviet Republic" should both be added). It's necessary to retain the "Donetsk" variants as, aside from the article having stood under that title for many years, there was a resurgence of interest due to recent events in Ukraine with the Donetsk People's Republic invoking ties to the historical state, which would also have created a conflation of the usage of 'Dontetsk' and 'Donets'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Donets-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic → Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic – Per WP:COMMONNAME, use the most common spelling in reliable sources. With an en dash in this attributive compound, per MOS:DASH and MOS:ENBETWEEN. (A dash is used for two nouns, a hyphen with a combining form like Donetsko-Krivorozhskaia. Compare MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES.)

Google Advanced Book Search, per WP:SET:

• "Donetsk-Krivoy Rog" -Wikipedia 276 results (+76% over next spelling, +500% over current title)
• "Donetsk-Krivoi Rog" -Wikipedia 157
• "Donets-Krivoi Rog" -Wikipedia 83
• "Donetsk-Kryvyi Rih" -Wikipedia 74
• "Donetsko-Krivorozhskaya" -Wikipedia 49
• "Donets-Krivoy Rog" -Wikipedia 46
• "Donetsko-Krivorozhskaia" -Wikipedia 44
• "Donets-Kryvyi Rih" -Wikipedia 40
• "Donetsk-Kryvy Rih" -Wikipedia 10
• "Donetsko-Kryvorizka" -Wikipedia 10
• "Donets-Kryvy Rih" -Wikipedia 1

The full name is most common:

• "Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic" -Wikipedia 147 (+100%)
• "Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic" -Wikipedia 73

Google Scholar Search:

• "Donetsk-Krivoy Rog" -Wikipedia 85 results (+93% over next most common, +1,600% over current title)
• "Donetsk-Krivoi Rog" -Wikipedia 34
• "Donets-Krivoi Rog" -Wikipedia 24
• "Donetsk-Kryvyi Rih" -Wikipedia 44
• "Donetsko-Krivorozhskaya" -Wikipedia 18
• "Donets-Krivoy Rog" -Wikipedia 5
• "Donetsko-Krivorozhskaia" -Wikipedia 6
• "Donets-Kryvyi Rih" -Wikipedia 14
• "Donetsk-Kryvy Rih" -Wikipedia 5
• "Donetsko-Kryvorizka" -Wikipedia 4
• "Donets-Kryvy Rih" -Wikipedia 0

Background: the name refers to the Donbas (Donets Basin) and Kryvbas (Krivoi Rog/Kryvyi Rih Basin) mining and industrial regions. The adjective Donetske and derived noun Donetsk (both later used as alternate names for the city), and combining form Donetsko- are derived from the name of the river Donets. But the native names of the subject are Ru. Donetsko-Krivorozhskaia sovetskaia respublika and Uk. Donetsko-Kryvorizka radianska respublika. The English form is not an exact romanization but a translation, so we should use the most commonly used form in English-language WP:reliable sources per the guideline, and not what we feel might be more precisely correct.  —Michael Z. 16:57, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mzajac: these are always tricky, with anything at Donets (disambiguation) plausible. As far as I see it, as a native British English speaker, the name or transliteration has yet to settle in English. You're right that declensions would be unlikely in English, we don't have Becsi or Bécsi (Hungarian "of or from Vienna") but do have Wien, Vienne, Bécs. Yet Becs is a DAB and Viennoise redirects to Vienne, not Vienna. It really does come down to WP:COMMONNAME and I think it is still rather in flux. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 23:15, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, the proposal changes one letter but is 600% more common than the current title, so it is an improvement. —Michael Z. 00:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per exhaustively researched and detailed nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, as well as a cursory search on Google Scholar comparing Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic and Donets-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic, suggesting that the former is far more common in academic sources. MarioGom (talk) 10:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support. This overwrites and reverts an apparently undiscussed move (one of several)

18:38, 1 June 2017 Ιγκόρ talk contribs block  64 bytes +64  Ιγκόρ moved page Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic to Donets-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic over redirect: It is just a wrong translation of the word "Донецкая". There was no Donetsk at that time. The city was called Yuzovka (Юзо...

Hopefully this RM will lead to stability. Andrewa (talk) 20:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Flag in 1918

I found the flag file here. User:Sumanuil just reverted it. If anyone thinks it's right, then put back the flag. No need to argue anything. I don't support one of the sides. Beta Lohman※Office box 21:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The note you removed said not to use it as it is of dubious authenticity. Like I told you on your talk page, the fact that it exists now means nothing. As the note says,

"A black-blue-red tricolour has widely been attributed to the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Republic, and is used by organisations such as the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic. There is no historical record of this flag having been used in 1918, however, and the tricolour is believed to have originated with the International Movement of Donbass in the 1980s."

Sumanuil. 21:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Then that needs to be proven by historians. Anyway, it's not an editor's common job. I'll agree with this point temporally. --Beta Lohman※Office box 22:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Borders

In the caption for the map in the infobox, it says those borders were "claimed" by the DKRR. Were those borders also controlled de facto? The de facto territorial extent is very unclear to me as a reader. HappyWith (talk) 23:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)