Talk:Hugo Heyrman

Moved (2005)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

NOTE: On February 14, 2005 we moved this article from "Dr. Hugo Heyrman" to its proper designation "Hugo Heyrman" to conform with with Wikipedia standards of consistency. JillandJack 13:10, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Now ten years later, this is a request to move the page Hugo Heyrman back to the artist name Dr. Hugo Heyrman. In this case it is indeed not just a title, but an official artist name, covering the GFDL licensing. There is a precedent for retaining a Dr. on a artist's name at Dr. Dre, as noted by - Solipsist 21:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC) Dr. Hugo (talk) 14:21, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Comment on Moved (2005)

On February 14, 2005, User talk:JillandJack moved the article Dr. Hugo Heyrman back to Hugo Heyrman. At that time the move took place (regrettable) without any further discusion. Please also notice that the account of this user (talk:JillandJack) has later been blocked, and that this user was also a reincarnation of banned User:DW/BlackWidow/Angelique etc. See also: [1] Thanks for your attention, Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Copyvio?

This article appears to be a copyright violation from http://www.jahsonic.com/HugoHeyrman.html However, that page may well have been authored by one of the anonymous editors contributing here. Can anyone clarify. -- Solipsist 10:01, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Note to Solipsist:

Hereby I confirm to be the original author of the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Hugo_Heyrman. The text at http://www.jahsonic.com/HugoHeyrman.html is a copy of the original, edited & published with my permission. -- Dr. Hugo Heyrman 12:57, 19 Dec 2004

... So this article should probably be at Hugo Heyrman, with a redirect from Dr. Hugo Heyrman.

Note to Solipsist:

-- Dr. Hugo Heyrman (in this case it is not just a title, but an official artist name) 12:57, 19 Dec 2004

Thanks Dr. Hugo, that should cover the GFDL licensing. I see you have a user name now - that's excellent.

I don't think I can now merge the page histories from the other related/blanked articles, but I can at least move this talk page and check the redirects.

I take your point on the article title. It doesn't quite conform to the manual of style, but that's OK. A more important rule is that an article should be at the most common name, or where people would expect to find it. There is a precedent for retaining a Dr. on a artist's name at Dr. Dre, most of the other examples are fictional characters. -- Solipsist 21:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Note to Solipsist:

Real thanks for accepting this specific case, the advice and also for mentioning the precedent example. -- Dr. Hugo 10:01, 25 Dec 2004

Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines

I would suggest you read:

• Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines
• Wikipedia:Autobiography

In relation to editing an article about yourself. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The article requires third-party sources confirming notability as per Wikipedia guidelines (see Wikipedia:Notability (people)). Otherwise this article runs the risk of going to the article for deletion process as a vanity, non-notable article. Also, given that the article is about a Wikipedia user, that has edited trhe article itself, the article will probably needs to be userfied (i.e. moved to the user's page). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Third party sources

Dr, Hugo, can you please provide thir party sources that attest to some of the content you added? This is needd for Verifiability, otheerwise you carry the risk that the article will be marked for deletion and the content moved to your user page. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Jossi, in order to defend the notablity, hereby a reference to a list of reliable published sources, to attest the content of the article. A selection of the third-party sources are to be found online at 'Selected Bibliography': [[2]]. -- Hugo Heyrman 02:60, 24 januari 2006

Thanks Hugo. Can you provide cites to these refs? For example. when you say...

During the sixties, Dr. Hugo Heyrman profiled himself as an avant-garde artist with happenings, film- and video experiments.

...we need a cite in which a third party (what we call a secondary source), that confirms that statement (such as a neswpaper article, a magazine article, an online interview, etc.

Another example, when you say:

Online since 1995, Dr. Hugo Heyrman became one of the pioneers in Net.art.

...we need a citation in which a source other than you, referred to you as a pioner of net art.

Yet another example, when you say ...

For Dr. Hugo Heyrman ideas are tools; his personal approach to surface, texture and colour contributes to the possibilities of painting, and the adventure of the visual arts.

...we need a source in which that is stated, etc.

(BTW, if you place four tildes like this: ~~~~, your signature and a time/dat stamp wil be added automatically.) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to NPOV the article

I have attempted to WP:NPOV the article as an example on how this biography can be treated. I have added marks such as: {{fact}} where we should expect verifiable sources. Hope this helps. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Jossi: real thanks for the advise on the structural editing of the article. Dr. Hugo 03:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome. Regarding the cite to:

History of Internet Art, review by Matthew Turlington http://www.doctorhugo.org/review.html.

Where was that published? If it was published only in your website, that may be not sufficient for inclusion. Thanks. Also note that Mr. Turlingon may not be notable enough to be cited as a source for an article in Wikipedia ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Jossi, Thanks for mentioning the Mr. Turlingon's cite. Regarding footnote 5, I corrected it, to place it into a more referential time context. Dr. Hugo 12:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The article now is looking good but many of the sources I am not so sure about. IMO, in these bios less is more. Please note:

• All sources and references cannot be from either yourself, or your website. Sources have to be from secondary sources.
• Sources need to be relevant for verifiability. If you provide a reference, the reference needs to verify the text

For example this cite: Prix Jeune Peinture Belge http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jeune_Peinture_Belge is not meaningful for verifiability. Also refs 8 and 9, seem to be primary sources. Ref 5 is supposed to be to assert verifiability about being a pioneer of digital art. What we need is a secondary source saying that Heryman is such. Otherwise we need to delete the text for NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Jossi: I must say that your remarks are to the point. I take it as a challenge to oblige your requests one by one. I corrected 4 into a secondary source, made it less is more and added a See also. Dr. Hugo 19:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks. I wish it would be so easy with other biographies... :) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Jossi: hereby a wikifying correction for [citation needed], and a question if I can add an image? Photo by Charles François (Drhugoheyrman.1.jpg). Dr. Hugo 07:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hugo, Yes, you can add a photo, if you have the rights for it and you are willing to place such photo in the public domain under the GNU. See Wikipedia:Copyrights ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Edit request

This is a request to move the content of the page Hugo Heyrman back to the artist name Dr. Hugo Heyrman, with a (Redirected from Hugo Heyrman) In this case it is indeed not just a title, but an official artist name, covering the GFDL licensing. There is a precedent for retaining a Dr. on a artist's name at Dr. Dre, Dr. Atl,… See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pseudonyms#Visual_arts At Wikipedia we see that classifying an artist under his artist name is also more encyclopedic and logical than the other way around (by his birth name). Sincères salutations, Dr. Hugo (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

On February 14, 2005, User talk:JillandJack moved the article Dr. Hugo Heyrman back to Hugo Heyrman. At that time the move took place (regrettable) without any further discusion. Please also notice that the account of this user (talk:JillandJack) has later been blocked, and that this user was also a reincarnation of banned User:DW/BlackWidow/Angelique etc. See also: [3] Thanks for your attention, Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. We have no agreement that "Dr." is commonly enough used to include. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

---

Hugo Heyrman → Dr. Hugo Heyrman – This is a request to move the content of the page Hugo Heyrman back to the artist name Dr. Hugo Heyrman, with a (Redirected from Hugo Heyrman) In this case it is indeed not just a title, but an official artist name, covering the GFDL licensing. There is a precedent for retaining a Dr. on a artist's name at Dr. Dre, Dr. Atl,…See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pseudonyms#Visual_arts At Wikipedia we see that classifying an artist under his artist name is also more encyclopedic and logical than the other way around (by his birth name). Sincères salutations Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:36, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment are you the artist in question? If not, are you a fan? -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 06:20, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Argument, yes it’s correct, I’m the artist. Thanks for your attention, Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, per the very few reliable sources for this individual in Google Books, none of which have "Dr" as part of an art name; therefore argument above not convincing at all. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Argument, this is not correct: here is one with “Dr” as part of an art name & here are some more Wikipedia precedent/examples:

-- Gerardo Murillo Cornado was a Mexican painter and writer who signed his works Dr. Atl. -- Theodor Seuss Geisel was an American writer, cartoonist, animator, book publisher, artist,, best known under the pen name Dr. Seuss. -- Dr. Love (artist) is a Georgian street/graffiti artist based in Tbilisi, Georgia. -- Dr Lakra (Jeronimo Lopez Ramirez, born 1972, Mexico) is an artist and tattooist based in Oaxaca, Mexico. This shows that it’s logical to categorize an artist under his artist name on Wikipedia. Are there no Wikipedian editors defending this specific cultural case? Thanks for your attention, Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

• I tried to look up that source that is cited above (ISBN 9053496858, ISBN 9789053496855). I was surprised to find that it was not available through Amazon.com, so it must be rather obscure, and perhaps self-published, so it is not clear whether it is usable as a source to establish the common name (or for other purposes for the article). —BarrelProof (talk) 15:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
• Argument, source to establish the actual common name: A link to a book with “Dr” as part of an artist name. or this ISBN 9789053496855, a book about the artist/painter “Dr. Hugo Heyrman". Sincères salutations. Dr. Hugo (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CREDENTIAL, and subject is more often referred to without the "Dr" bit anyway. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Argument, the reason why the subject is online more often referred to without the “Dr" is clear. The artist started using the “Dr” only after he became a “Doctor of Arts” in 1995, and since then it became common to use this “new” artists name. Googling “Dr. Hugo Heyrman” finds confirming sites. See also; Name changes: Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, COMMONNAME still applies, but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the "new" name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. An encyclopedic article is a work in progress. Thanks for your attention, Dr. Hugo (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose: There are lots of articles on Wikipedia about people who have doctorate degrees, and very few of them have "Dr." in the article title. That is (properly) only done in exceptional cases where it is clear that the "Dr." is included consistently by reliable sources as part of the common name of the person. We do not seem to have adequate evidence that "Dr." would be included consistently by reliable sources when discussing this person. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Argument: Indeed, it is not done or wanted for people who have doctorate degrees to use “Dr.” in the article title. Also very true is that lots of articles on Wikipedia are indeed about people who have doctoral degrees, and very few of them have "Dr." in the article title. The main reason seems evident, only very few persons are using “Dr.” as part of an artist name. On Wikipedia we find only a few of these artist’s names (precedent examples are mentioned above; (talk) 2:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC). Maybe some of these “Dr.” artist’s don't even have a degree, but they are all diverse in their unique qualities of artistic authenticity. It has a cultural/archival value that these linguistic precedents exist in a contemporary online encyclopedia as Wikipedia. It also shows that the point of this discussion is not about degrees, and not about persons (not using an artist name) who are so exceptional in their work as a professional doctor, insofar that the “Dr.” became part of the common name of the person. An encyclopedic article is a work in progress, see also; Name changes: Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, COMMONNAME still applies, but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the "new" name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. To clarify this case, next to the existing Wikipedia precedents, a reason for extra weight can be the fact, that since the last twenty years the artist works under this "new" artist’s name consequently. Googling “Dr. Hugo Heyrman” finds confirming bibliographical sources (written after the name change is announced) referencing to published books and mainstream press publications. I hope that the article can be updated with the artist's name and further wikified. Sincères salutations, Dr. Hugo (talk) 06:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.