Talk:Duke of Slavonia

Title issue

Title is not just a Duke of Slavonia, but sometimes also "Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia". According to some information I found on internet, which have to be verfied by more reliable data, at some occasions full title was "Duke of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia". Walter9 (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Marko Brkljača: (and @Walter9:) could you verify the new title (Duke of Croatia and Slavonia)? Borsoka (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: "Between 1084 and 1091 Álmos was the duke of Slavonia; between 1091 and 1095 he was named duke of Croatia." It is therefore disingenuous that the article is named only Duke of Slavonia if the very first holder held a parallel title Duke of Croatia(which is different from title of "ban" of either regions). According to Croatian sources on the "Hrvatski hercezi" article Ferdo Šišić states in his book "Povijest Hrvata" on page 202 that sometimes the parallel dukes used the full title of dux totius Sclavoniae, Croatiae et Dalmatiae. And since there never was a separate defined Dalmatian region under a separate ban (unlike Slavonia which had a separate one from 1225 to 1576, I propose to omit the "Dalmatian" duke title. Marko Brkljača (talk) 00:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: "Andrew, Duke of Slavonia (Hungarian: András szlavóniai herceg; 1268 – 1278) was the youngest son of King Stephen V of Hungary and his wife, Elizabeth the Cuman. Two rebellious lords kidnapped him in 1274 in an attempt to play him off against his brother, Ladislaus IV of Hungary, but the king's supporters liberated him. He was styled Duke of Slavonia and Croatia in a 1274 letter." Marko Brkljača (talk) 00:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Marko Brkljača:, thank you for your answer. If my understanding is correct, we can verify that one of the dozen dukes used the new title. If this is the case, why should we accept the new title? Borsoka (talk) 00:57, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: "Stephen (of Anjou) and Margaret's daughter, Elizabeth, was born around 1353.[29] She was given in marriage to Philip of Taranto, the titular Emperor of Constantinople, in 1370.[30] Stephen's son, John, inherited Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia from his father, but he was still a child when he died in 1360.[31]"

Sorry but here are now three people listed with parallel titles. Yes, Slavonian dukes were mostly Hungarians but they had mixed titles. The article title is not objective in this aspect that it negates the title of a Duke of Croatia (which verifiably existed at the same time and was held by parallel by several Slavonian dukes). Any form of Hungarian revisionism and negating the parallel holding of the titles is wrong. Slavonia was a Croatian region and only logically can one conclude that it was a "Croatian" title. But the new article name is an objective compromise.

@Borsoka: Croatian: "Odredio (Bela IV) je da u Hrvatskoj vlada herceg (dux totius Sclavoniae, Croatiae et Dalmatiae) od kraljevskog roda, kojemu je dodijelio dva bana: slavonskog i hrvatsko-dalmatinskog."

Translation: "He decreed (Bela IV) that in Croatia there should rule a duke (dux totius Sclavoniae, Croatiae et Dalmatiae) from a royal (Hungarian) family, to whom he awarded two 'bans0: Slavonian and Croatian-Dalmatian."

by Ferdo Šišić ("Povijest Hrvata" (History of the Croats)) on page 202 Marko Brkljača (talk) 01:20, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: His father (Bela IV) appointed him Duke of Slavonia in 1260.[6] In addition to Slavonia, 'Béla's (Bela IV's son) duchy included Croatia and Dalmatia. Marko Brkljača (talk) 01:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Could you, please, refer to reliable sources to substantiate the new title? You referred to two Wikipedia articles (which are not regarded as reliable sources) and a primary source. Why do you think if two (or three) dukes of Slavonia were also styled as dukes of Croatia and Dalmatia, we should change the title? Borsoka (talk) 01:29, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: "John (of Anjou), nevertheless, was styled duke of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia in 1358." (Engel, Pál (2001). The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895–1526. p. 157). Why do you deny the Croatian title? (both titles are objectively as much Croatian as they are separate since Slavonia was a Croat populated region within the Kingdom of Croatia under the Hungarian king)

4 PEOPLE HAVE PARALLEL TITLES Marko Brkljača (talk) 01:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Louis (Louis I of Hungary) made Charles (Charles III of Naples) governor of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia with the title of duke in 1371.[2][8][12]

[8] Engel, Pál (2001). The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895–1526. I.B. Tauris Publishers. pp. 169-170

5 PEOPLE HAVE PARALLEL TITLES Marko Brkljača (talk) 01:54, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

You have demonstrated that Andrew (Ladislaus IV's brother) was styled duke of Slavonia and Croatia, the young Béla IV, John of Anjou and Charles of Durazzo were styled as duke of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia. However, we are talking about a dozen of dukes. Please remember that medieval rulers used multiple titles. For instance, the kings of Hungary were styled "kings of Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Rama, Serbia, Bulgaria, Cumania, Halych and Lodomeria", while the kings of France were also styled kings of Navarra from 1589. However, WP is an encyclopedia, so we do not list all these titles. Until we do not demonstrate, that the title "Duke of Croatia and Slavonia" is most common than the previous title "Duke of Slavonia" we cannot use the new title. Borsoka (talk) 02:00, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: First of all, Dalmatia was never a region separated from Croatia (except much later in the 19th century) so your first point is irrelevant in any way it was meant, second, show me where there existed a Dalmatian duchy or Dalmatian kingdom prior to the 19th century (I sense an attempt at Hungarian revisionism). The title Duke of Slavonia is disengenuous because of the proofs I listed and since Hungarian nationalists won't stop stinging the eyes of Croatian history (and some even outright denying Slavonia was a Croatian region), I present a 6th person Coloman of Galicia to hold parallel titles.

"Coloman was styled "by the Grace of God, king of the Ruthenians, and by his glorious father's generosity, duke of Dalmatia and Croatia" in his first extant charter in 1226.[60] Göncöl, Archbishop of Split, referred to Coloman as king and duke of Slavonia in 1229.[61]

"Andrew II entrusted Coloman with the government of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia in 1226." (According to n. Procházková his influence in the south of the Kingdom of Hungary extended over the "Principality of Slavonia-Croatia-Dalmatia" and over Bosnia. PROCHÁZKoVÁ, Koloman Haličský, ref. 3, p. 249.)

6 PEOPLE HAVE PARALLEL TITLES Marko Brkljača (talk) 02:18, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct you refer to the title "Duke of Dalmatia and Croatia" and to your own opinion to substantiate the title "Duke of Croatia and Slavonia". I am afraid your approach is not in line with the relevant WP policies, especially WP:Name. If you cannot verify the new title, it should be changed. Borsoka (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Slavonia was a Croatian region under the administration of a single Croatian ban until 1225 when the region was admitedly split into two governing bans (who nevertheless, often had parallel Croatian and Slavonian titles). Just a bit before the incorporation of Croatia into Hungary, the title Duke of Croatia was bestowed upon Prince Almos Arpad by King Coloman Arpad. The title was then (inconsistently) appointed as either Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia (Dalmatia was considered a concrete part of Croatia) and Duke of Slavonia and according to some Dukes of Savonia, Croatia and Dalmatia. The point is PARALLEL HOLDING OF TWO VERY RELATED ACCORDING TO FACTS VIRTUALLY THE SAME KINGDOM AND REGION BUT WITH TWO TITLES. You can't name an article only Ban of Slavonia, this is negating the well documented exitence of a Ban of Croatia. I propose the renaming of the article furthermore then (if Hungarian nationalists wont accept facts) to Dukes of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia.

THIS ARTICLE IS FLAWED EVEN WITHOUT MY SHOWING OF PROOFS OF CROATIAN, RELATED AND PARALLEL TITLES Marko Brkljača (talk) 02:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

"In this period (around 1269) king Bela makes some drastic changes in the governing of Croatian lands. First of all, he decrees that all Croatian lands to be governed by a duke (herceg) of the royal dynasty (dux totius Sclavoniae, Croatiae et Dalmatiae)." (Šišić, Ferdo, Povijest Hrvata, pregled povijesti hrvatskog naroda, 600.-1526., prvi dio, Split, 2004. p. 202) Marko Brkljača (talk) 02:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Please read and apply WP:Name. You can hardly refer to Croatian sources to substantiate the proper English version of the title. I would be grateful if you could communicate without referring to nationalism or similar factors that are irrelevant in the context of the debate. Neither Croatian, nor Hungarian nationalists' views can determine the proper title of the article. Borsoka (talk) 02:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: I cannot talk without nationalism when this article is a clear example of Hungarian nationalist revisionism (before I came there was no mention of Croatia or of the title Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia or of the paralellity between the two as evident:

The Duke of Slavonia (Latin: (dux Slavoniae) was a title of nobility granted several times in the 13th and 14th centuries to relatives of Hungarian monarchs or other noblemen. The Duke of Slavonia (Latin: dux Slavoniae, also dux Dalmatiae et Croatiae[1], in translation duke of Dalmatia and Croatia) was a title of nobility granted several times in the 13th and 14th centuries to relatives of Hungarian monarchs or other noblemen.[2] The title of duke signified a more extensive power than that of the Ban of Slavonia.[3]

Marko Brkljača (talk) 02:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Borsoka: I know this is an assault on Croatian history and negating the parallelity of bans and dukes and of claiming Slavonia as a fundamentally distinct region of the Croatian medieval kingdom (parts of Slavonia were settled with Hungarians to try to de-Croatize the region) but the Croats have resisted severe Magyarization in their history and will do so with historiography as well.

The solution is:

a) mentioning the relationship of Slavonia as a region withing Croatian lands under the government of various dukes and bans that are also at the same time parallel bans or dukes of croatia, while renaming the title to suit history better

b) renaming the article to Dukes of Croatia (under Hungary) (Croatian nationalist view based on facts that all slavs in the slavonian region were ethnically Croat) (I oppose this essentialy on compromise grounds)

c) separating and creating new articles for the titles

Marko Brkljača (talk) 03:05, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not want to discuss what you think, assume or know about history or nationalistic agendas. The original title can be verified for instance by Dvornik's work ([1]) in accordance with WP:Name. Sorry, I will not comment this issue any more, but the original title will be restored if you cannot substantiate any of the titles that you propose with references to sources published in English. Borsoka (talk) 03:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Is this a joke? Obviously you havent read any of my sources and are now clinging on some form of strict separation of the title based on just that "it existed" as mentioned in the book, without regarding anything related to it or what made the title what it was.

Rename the article back, whatever, but the parallel Dukes of Croatia and Dalmatia will stay as a witness to the factually proven historical relationship between the two titles, and I will expand the article with sources previously mentioned that you haven't read, or if you have, hadn't understood. Farewell, Hungarian nationalist. Marko Brkljača (talk) 03:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 21 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: reverted to the stable title, Duke of Slavonia, at this time per Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requests to revert undiscussed moves. As the move to "Croatia and Slavonia" has been contested, please file a separate move proposal if you would like to rename this page. Dekimasuよ! 02:26, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

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Duke of Croatia and Slavonia → Duke of Slavonia – Marko Brkljača, moved the page without discussing the movement from "Duke of Slavonia" to "Duke of Croatia and Slavonia". He has not referred to a single reliable source published in English that verifies that the present title ("Duke of Croatia and Slavonia") is in accordance with WP:NAME. The proposed (original) title is substantiated by reliable sources, including Pál Engel. Moreover, this title was used by all the individuals listed in the article, but not all of them were also dukes of Croatia. Borsoka (talk) 23:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.