Talk:Dunsany's chess

Query

"except that only the eight black pawns have the option to move forward two spaces on their first move." Is this an exception? I don't think so, in regular chess this can be done. Don't you think so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.2.40.6 (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

In "regular" chess, the white pawns can also do this; the exception here is that it's only the black pawns. GRAPPLE X 19:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

What's wrong with mentioning best player in history of horde chess in trivialities section? Whoever remove this please explain yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.123.53.188 (talk) 01:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

What's with this blatant advertising for lichess? - Anonymous Aug 24th 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.166.102.48 (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

209.141.192.213 have to be banned for numerous vandalism attempts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.107.85.47 (talk) 23:49, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Removal of Kasparov trivia

I've reverted any edits which re-add any "Kasparov trivia" due to the only reference barely mentioning the user. The reference is also a forum, which is self published and obviously editable to say whatever you want. If you'd like to keep the trivia, please find a better reference. Thanks. samtar (talk) 07:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

It is important to mention best player in history of horde chess in trivia section. There is enough proofs given now - link to the horde-chess game. So, Unihedro and other butthurted lichess mods - if you remove this again - this will be pure vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.73.162.147 (talk) 12:20, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

It's worth noting that this trivia is actually not about Kasparov, the great chess player, but Kapsarov. Whatever game history they have on Lichess, it is no grounds for mentioning since there are no reliable sources or mass media declaring such an achievement. Full disclosure: I am a Lichess moderator and identified this user ("Kapsarov") as a long time troll. Unihedro (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Lichess.org itself isn't reliable enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.121.113.31 (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Without even mattering if it's reliable or not, there is no encyclopaedic merit in listing the pseudonym of someone who posted the best score in a variant of a variant of a game, and only did so on one website so it can't even be judged as being the "best in the world". It's a pathetically narrow field of achievement. GRAPPLE ^X 08:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I can confirm: Kapsarov (AKA ChampK AKA Osiris of Chess AKA KoolChamp) was the best on lichess.org in horde chess category (as well as in atomic chess, and correspondence chess) for long time, holding gold trophy and having incredible rating. That fact was proven by game link. It is objective reality, and believe me - it is not pathetic achievement. The level of horde competition is very high on lichess website - strong GMs and IMs playing horde chess there regularly (for example - Grandmaster http://en.lichess.org/@/Arka50 - in top10). No doubt, mentioning greatest ever player in this section is correct and useful, as people want to know who is really best to learn some wisdom from Kapsarov's games searching in database. And it never been said "best in the world" - please read carefully. The statement was in "Horde chess on Lichess" section. I do not know about champions on other sites, probably lichess.org is the only place where you can play this variant seriously. I revert back changes, if you have any questions or suggestions - feel free to ask them here, I will come back to this page tomorrow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vdn12 (talk • contribs) 04:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Either you're trolling, or you're a bit of a sad case. Read ALL of what's been discussed above. Unihedro (talk) 07:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, Urinhedro, as long as you haven't real arguments to say, I have a full right to restore information about Kapsarov. This for sure is very useful contribution. Please do not waste people's time anymore, and do not spoil this article with your senseless statements about pressing "doggy" on the keyboard (that was real trolling from your side) or removing important facts about all-time best player Kapsarov or gameplay en-passant bug on lichess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.228.191.58 (talk) 08:44, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The information is not relevant nor encyclopaedic enough to warrant mention. It's not about Dunsany's chess, and it's a ranking based on an increasingly narrow set of specifics that's about as useful as listing pub teams ahead of world class teams in an article on association football. If FIDE had rankings for the best player of Dunsany's chess worldwide, then with a reliable secondary source we could add that—but to have so much focus on a variant of the article's actual subject, and mention someone who is only the best on one website, is a serious breach of WP:UNDUE. That is that. GRAPPLE ^X 14:52, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, what we have here? Unihedro and GrappleX for some reason do not want greatest ever horde chess player Kapsarov to be mentioned on this page. Their arguments were: 1. "There is no enough proofs". - I added more proofs - direct link to horde game on lichess website. Now this fact is undisputed. 2. "There are no reliable sources or mass media declaring". - It is simply not required here. The nature of such competitions (online chess) doesn't involve widely publicizing in mass-media. 3. "The information is not relevant nor encyclopaedic enough". - Not true. Fact about best player in history of chess variant is 100% relevant information in the article about that chess variant. About listing pub teams, just a small example - GrappleX look at this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Sunday_Cup anything wrong with that? 4. "FIDE has no rankings for Dunsany's chess worldwide". - Here again I just ask you to read more careful the article before you start discussing. The original statement about Kapsarov is placed in "Horde chess on lichess" section of the article. No need for any FIDE confirmations required, as lichess.org itself is not a part of FIDE organization. Waiting for your reply, guys. There aren't yet real arguments from your side against this contribution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vdn12 (talk • contribs) 04:14, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

The fact that chess' highest governing body does not see fit to rank this narrow variant is more a reason against it's inclusion than it is for it. I would advise you to actually read policies such as WP:FANCRUFT and WP:UNDUE before insisting on narrow, fringe, unencyclopaedic content, which functions as little more than personal aggrandisement and advertising for a website be included. This guy might well be the best in the world, but he isn't provably so, and even if it were provable, it's in such a narrow field--not chess, not a variant of chess, but a variant of a variant of chess which isn't even the article's subject, that it's just not worth taking the time to mention. GRAPPLE ^X 07:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I've been mostly un-involved with this debate since I first removed the trivia, and have kept an eye just to make sure edit wars don't break out. Reading through the above, it is clear to myself that a consensus exists, therefore I'd like to ask Vdn12 to stop re-adding the content. By all means, add the information to Lichess, where a ranking table/mention of the player would be more appropriate. Thank you. samtar ^(msg) 08:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Removal of Lichess section

Thank you Grapple X for the removal of this section - I completely agree it was never really needed. I also think it's helped stop the content dispute which was occurring. samtar ^(msg) 10:09, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good action to take that should had been done in the first place. I only authored it after someone created it (with a sloppy, unfinished description) without knowing whether the section was appropriate so I just did it and waited for impact. Unihedro (talk) 14:36, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

At the end of the day, it took up half the article and had nothing to do with the article's subject. I'm not even convinced "horde chess" in general even merits the space it's given at the minute either but at least there's some semblance of sourcing to it. GRAPPLE ^X 14:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with this removal. Horde chess only came to prominence because, it is played on Lichess, and there is subtle difference in the rules, enough to form confusion. Lichess was mentioned because of the differences, not to give advertising. Remove the "trivia" sections by all means, but why cause confusion instead? --Jules (Mrjulesd) 15:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Unless it is an invention of Lichess, I see no reason to single them out for mention at all. They're but one outlet for something that does not rely on them, and that something is, once again, not actually the subject of the article at hand. GRAPPLE ^X 15:09, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes the rules where formulated differently for the lichess server, and differ from the horde in the article. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 16:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Grapple X, Mrjulesd - Perhaps a compromise can be sought? For example, leaving the section out completely here, but adding a "See Also" section (or similar) with a link such as Dunsany's chess on Lichess.org linking to the Lichess wikipedia article. samtar ^(msg) 15:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I would see this as the equivalent of linking to a retailer's website in an article on a product they sell but do not produce, so I would prefer not to. There is no connection proving Lichess is important to Dunsany's chess, only that it hosts a variation of Dunsany's chess which it did not create. GRAPPLE ^X 15:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm, I see your point there. samtar ^(msg) 15:21, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Putting it on the Lichess page would give undue weight to the variant, as the majority of chess played there is standard chess. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 16:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Do we still really need to be devoting more space to the "horde" variant than to the actual subject of the article? GRAPPLE ^X 07:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that is actually the case. THere are three variants listed, which each one taking up less space than the last. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 08:38, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I see that you added the content back as a sub-section of the variant. In that case, consider repairing the reflist I previously added that cites about the double-move rule for pawns on the first rank. Unihedro (talk) 11:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@Unihedro: Done--Jules (Mrjulesd) 13:50, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

User Grapple X, calm down, and try to think logically. Horde chess deserves much space in this article, because it is more popular than original Dunsany's chess, more balanced and interesting. Dunsany's chess is not playable at all, as pieces have too big advantage comparatively to pawns, and would win all the time (you have to be a complete moron to loose with black on Dunsany's setup). Lichess stuff did a good job by balancing the game, cut this gemstone into sparkling diamond. Nowadays Dunsany's chess is a relic, while horde is a real thing - about 200 000 horde games played already, and more than 1000 playing every day, according to lichess.org database. By the way, did you know that classical chess is just a one more variant of more ancient game Shatranj? Why then you do not argue about chess page is such more bigger than shatranj's? Also it would be very useful to place a sentence in "Horde Variant" section: "On 'date' Horde chess became available to play on lichess.org as a variant. Why not? In no way it will be a commercial advertising, as lichess is free-source site, which do not make any money. And it will be useful a lot by helping people to find a place where they could play this game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.194.201.15 (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Well I removed the Lichess mentions to try to work out a compromise, against accusations of advertising. As it stands it merely says a Horde variant exists, which is 100% correct. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 16:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that's best Mrjulesd, no need to mention Lichess as it already has an article. samtar ^(msg) 17:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

This will work. Lichess's Horde variant now links to this section for user help. Unihedro (talk) 07:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

How (when, where) was Dunsany's chess publicized?

The article says Lord Dunsany invented it in 1942. Did he publish it, or was it spread through oral tradition? What are the oldest sources we have? Jonas kork (talk) 08:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Published in periodical Fairy Chess Review in August 1942 according to both Pritchard ECVs. Also, World Game Review No. 10 edited by Michael Keller lists Nouveaux Jeux d'Echecs Non-orthodoxes (Joseph Boyer, 1942) as bibliographic source. --IHTS (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)  Done. --IHTS (talk) 19:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)