Talk:East Coast Main Line diagram

Kings Cross

The diagram needs improving at the Kings Cross end. According to the OS map, there is a line crossing above the ECML immediately before a tunnel shortly after leaving Kings Cross. Anyone know what the line is and the name of the tunnel? Mjroots (talk) 10:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you talking about the London Overground's North London Line? Useddenim (talk) 12:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Any editor is free to correct or improve the diagram if they can. A few lines still need naming too. Mjroots (talk) 19:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I've had a go at adding to the area around Kings Cross. Any improvements or corrections welcome. Mjroots (talk) 12:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I've made further corrections, based on the 1874 6" OS map. Note the position of Kings Cross York Road station (far right) and that there is a station just south of the North London Line named Great Northern Cemetery. Ideally, I'd like to show that the City Widened Lines continue in a tunnel, but we are constrained to a max of BS9, so it won't work without a wholesale re-jig of the diagram, so we'll have to be content with it as is, unless BS11 can be introduced! Mjroots (talk) 13:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

LU Circle line & former station added. I was unsure whether there was a tunnel between the Main Line and York Road station; if I was wrong it can be easily edited out. Useddenim (talk) 15:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

According to the 1899 map, there wasn't. The original station on the Widened lines at KX was "King's Cross (Metropolitan) station, per discussion at talk:Metropolitan railway. Mjroots (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The Widened Lines platforms on the western side (which formed part of the suburban station) seem to have gone missing, so I've put them back in. I've also added the loco depot (which occupied the land between the goods station and the North London Rly), and moved the Great Northern Cemetery station to a position opposite the loco shed, per the 1874 map.

{{BS11}} does exist, as do {{BS10}} and {{BS12}} (also {{BS10-2}}, {{BS11-2}}, {{BS12-2}}, {{BS13-2}} and {{BS14-2}}), but I'm not sure if the overlay feature works properly for those (i.e. does |O12= refer to the first overlay layer in the twelfth cell, or the second overlay layer in the first cell). --Redrose64 (talk) 23:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, O12 is the second overlay in the first cell. King's Cross (Metropolitan) is now directing to King's Cross St. Pancras tube station. This is clearly incorrect, as the station is show as closed, as is its line, whereas the tube station is open. It may be that the Met station became Thameslink, or that Thameslink occupied the same site as the Met station. I don't profess to be an expert on the GNR. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

K†(Met) was a redlink, so I changed it to King's Cross St. Pancras tube station#History which does specifically mention the original station. Someone else had previously linked the Widened Lines platforms at that location to K†Tl. Useddenim (talk) 10:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

How do the widened lines platforms equate to the 1874 map? This clearly shows the line moves away from the main station and is in a tunnel by the time it passes behind the Great Northern Hotel. Mjroots (talk) 06:01, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Re King's X Met - see my post at Talk:Metropolitan Railway#King's Cross.

Re the Widened Lines platform - this was to the north of the Hotel Curve tunnel mouth, i.e. NW of the main station. The gap between that and the main station was originally occupied by the loco depot (not to be confused with King's Cross Top Shed which was between Gasworks Tunnel and Copenhagen Tunnel); when the loco depot was moved to the north (W side of the line just S of Gasworks Tunnel) in 1924, the space it had occupied was used for additional suburban platforms at Kings Cross, which were just to the west of present-day platforms 9-11. See if you can get hold of

• Whitehouse, Patrick; Thomas, David St John (1989). LNER 150: The London and North Eastern Railway - A Century and a Half of Progress. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. pp. 58–59. ISBN 0 7153 9332 4. 01LN01.

which describes the remodelling of 1924 including a ground plan with "before" and "after" superimposed. The platform numbering on this plan is of the suburban station "before", and has terminal platforms 11-13 (which are the present-day plats 9-11), then the loco depot, which was to be replaced by two more terminal platforms (which were numbered 14-15), then the Widened Lines platform no. 14 (which would become no. 16), then one final terminal platform, no. 15 (to become 17). At that date the main-line station had 7 platforms numbered 1-6, 10 (where no. 10 is the present no. 8).

Situations like Kings's Cross (and Paddington) are very difficult to explain in terms of just one old map. You need a stack of them at different dates, so next time you're near Waterloo I suggest a visit to the Ian Allan shop on Lower Marsh, where they stock the Alan Godfrey range of old OS map reprints. Most parts of the London area are covered at two different scales, usually two or three different dates are available for each. One that I have to hand is titled "King's Cross & St. Pancras 1871-93", ISBN 0-85054-531-5; on one side is the 1871 1:1056 map (reduced to 1:1760) and it's hard to make out the Widened Lines platforms; but on the other side, there is the 1894-6 edition (revised 1893) 1:1056 (reduced to 1:2640), which does show these platforms, titled "King's Cross Station (Suburban)". --Redrose64 (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I was aware of the Suburban station being tacked on to the west side of the main station. It is not even mentioned in the main article on the station. It could be added to the diagram, but doing so would mean a major rework of the bottom part of the diagram, which has to be a compromise in any case. High Speed 1 and the North London Line in reality are a few yards from each other, yet are 6 lines apart in the diagram. Mjroots (talk) 05:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, should HS1 be moved to immediately below the NLL? Mjroots (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I think so; but whether it should be "above" or "below" the loco shed is moot, since I think it's been driven right through the site of the depot. The curve linking HS1 to ECML should be removed however, because it's really a branch off the NL connection. Instead there should be a junction for the link into St Pancras Thameslink immediately above Gasworks Tunnel. See Baker, Stuart K. (2010) [1977]. Rail Atlas Great Britain & Ireland (12th ed.). Hersham: Oxford Publishing Co. p. 26, section A2 (inset). ISBN 978 0 86093 632 9. 1010/C. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help). --Redrose64 (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to place the two together. The High Speed 1 route map definitely shows a link between HS1 and the ECML, but no link between the NLL and ECML. A look a Google Earth should confirm it. Not sure we need to show lines linking from HS1 to NLL unless we're gonna bung in St Pancras too, which is not something I'd be in favour of. Mjroots (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Tallington

Can anyone confirm whether or not Tallington is still in use for freight traffic by Dow-Mac. The Tallington railway station article states that it is, whilst the Tallington article states "former Dow-Mac Concrete Works". It was open in 2008 according to a spotter's forum. Mjroots (talk) 05:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Levenhall Tunnel

Levenhall Tunnel doesn't appear on any recent Network Rail maps and I can't find any reference to it in railway literature. Is this a historical addition to the diagram and if so, should there be a discussion on it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuagranshaw (talk • contribs) 13:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• There's none there now, and no sign of an historical one. So I've been bold and removed it. Bazza (talk) 14:33, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Actual line diagram

Whatever has happened to this... it seems very "jumbled" with many item line breaks since 2019

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 07:25, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks to whosoever tidied up the line diagram

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 11:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

??? There haven't been any changes since January, other than the occasional icon update. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:47, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Redrose64: I believe he was referring to the recent changes to {{Routemap}}. The diagram code now uses one fewer layer of nested tables; all of the icon rows are now (finally) aligned completely using divs. However, because I implemented this as a breaking change, it's possible that caching could have caused issues for some people due to the mismatched CSS having visible effects. Jc86035 (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Around Peterborough

The greyed out section between Westwood Junctions and Peterborough Crescent is this really disused? They just spent 200 million on Werrington Birrowing Junction. Having the lines laid out as it is would mean crossing onto the ECML then off again. Trains from Leicester to Peterborough seem to stop and platform 6 with the return on 7, which would fit in there being no detour on to the ECML. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/peterborough-accessible-routes?routeId=141587 --Kitchen Knife (talk) 02:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not intended to be a detailed map. Trying to draw the Werrington Dive Under reasonably accurately would significantly increase the width in that area, and cause people to ask why other areas aren't given the same level of attention. The ECML proper has three tracks between Peterborough and Helpston, with a further two on the Stamford line making five in all. We don't have the symbols (or the space) to show this at all accurately. So five tracks are condensed to two red lines. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:52, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I didn't explain my self will there. I'm not talking about adding Werrington but it looks like they reinstated a line which is on the diagram now but greyd out. if you look at https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheqSlAnSS0PouCJ6IM16UI80cnM1WUohuhACCjyYBoXdPo4WIA2r5by1r2v9PWT98SctnaZgTncbo1HZQfrxUlJLuIuek-psUZdptysfQ5PcvRwJ6u8r8oQWqA4j0Hq9C2cMBdmNuUdyVwG0M7Rr8ub7Ig05mzzA0ady4tT9t4jJizZvO18sgn9jM8Gw=s598 the greyed to the left seems no to be in use and Platform 6&7 are where it steps allowing tarins going on Birmingham to Ely line to avoid the ECML. My point was if they were prepared to do the Birrowing Junction then for 200m to get rid of a flat crossing, then the reinstating this to get rid of 2 would be fairly obvious as they already had the land--Kitchen Knife (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

And https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm2#LINK_4--Kitchen Knife (talk) 14:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)