Talk:Mick Mannock

Biography

Why is there no mention anywhere of the definitive book on Edward 'Mick' Mannock, written by a modern British historian at the University of Southampton who has published extensively, and who enjoyed the full cooperation of the family? Read: Adrian Smith, Mick Mannock Fighter Pilot: Myth, Life and Politics (Palgrave, 2001)

Because it isn't really definitive; it contains a number of contentious claims and is written from a politically prejudiced perspective. That doesn't make it wrong; it just makes is contentious. Ira Jones knew Mannock and arguably has a better claim to have written a more accurate account. Kentish 31 Aug 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.45.52.143 (talk) 08:42, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page has been vandalised a number of times by someone with a biased POV. There is no confirmed proof of Mannock's birth place: it should be listed as either Aldershot, Brighton or Co Cork. Unless someone can provide a birth certificate, simply quoting a biography is not acceptable because the biographies differ. Some of the vandalism has clearly been done by a prejudiced Irish nationalist trying to claim Mannock as Irish - I accept he may have been Irish but this is not confirmed. I note the use of "Scotts-Irish" (deleted) instead of "Scots-Irish", which suggested the vandalism was not done by someone from Ireland or Scotland...... Equally, Mannock was a supporter of the British Empire and of Home Rule for Ireland. These are not mutually exclusive. An Independent Ireland could have existed within the Empire. spymaster 2024, 2 August 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:CBD1:7201:25E9:FB73:E611:9938 (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

September 2016. A much improved rewrite - thanks to the author. But the birthplace still is too specific. There is no proven evidence that Mannock was born in Ireland. Brighton is more realisitc but even that is in doubt spymaster 2024, 25 September 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:CBDA:C701:E5C6:DC95:1B4E:3676 (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Illness

"Mannock developed amoebic infestation which rendered him temporarily blind and left him with permanently impaired vision." This has frequently been quoted but there is no actual proof of any eyesight weakness.

Aviatik Incident

The shooting down of the Aviatik trainers is also the subject of speculation and may be more due to Ira Jones' championing of Mannock's cause after the end of the war.(Harryurz 18:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC))

Alan Clark makes several references to this incident in Aces High, but since that book contains no footnotes I have been unable to trace the origin of the story. Drutt (talk) 07:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The Forgotten Ace

Much of this section is speculation and covered elsewhere in the article; as this is a reference encyclopedia can i suggest this part is edited out? The Red Baron did not 'fly solo missions' either.... Harryurz 15:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I did some copyediting of that section to make it readable but I'm not so sure it was worthwhile. If its going to stay it needs referencing at the very least. To my mind most of the heroes of that war are now for the most part forgotten and Mannock is no exception so is there any point to pointing it out? Sources needed or it goes in my opinion. --LiamE 13:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Scotland

One of the reference articles has Mr. Mannock as having been born in Scotland (Major Mick Mannock), which is correct? Durrus

Mannock was born in either Aldershot, Brighton or Ireland -depending on which source you read! First Ive heard about scotland though Harryurz 10:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC) 14:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Mannock the tactician

Much of this section has become speculative - ; words like 'arguably' etc should be avoided and POV's listed- particularly for the red baron references , which add nothing to the article , unless these are references , is everyone in agreement they should go? thanks Harryurz 11:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I took out the Red Baron claim, even before I saw this comment. I had heard that he was a great marksman, but an indifferent pilot, which would make it somewhat dubious. Clarityfiend 23:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What LILLIERS ?

correct place of death might be LILLERS (near BETHUNE), isn't it ? - Obviously there is no LILLIERS,

Thanks (WernerE) (germanwiki) 15.12.2006.

Latest biography

It would surely be worth consulting the latest biography, published in 2008, by Franks and Saunders. I have only looked at it fairly briefly in a local library. They claim to have found his grave in a war cemetery, currently marked as that of an unknown airman. However their comments on his birthplace do cast some light but also seem a bit sloppy. There is no record of his birth in Somerset House, which points towards a Cork birthplace. However they have not checked the records in Dublin, and they get confused by referring to "UK records". PatGallacher (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The 1911 census lists an Edward Mannock, a telephone engineer (this was his occupation in Turkey on the outbreak of war) as a boarder in No. 64 Melton Road, Wellingborough. This would have been filled in by the head of the household (a Mr Albert Joyce, a telephone Inspector). The birthplace listed for Edward is Brighton in Sussex. I agree that there is no mention of this birth in the GRO records (not kept at Somerset House for some 20 years, incidentally) and people often listed the incorrect birthplace for a number of reasons in the census, but this is another possibility. Mm121 (talk) 11:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)mm121Mm121 (talk) 11:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Four flamers in one day?

This claim is not supported by the list of victories substantiated for Mannock. He did have a run of three victories over enemy craft destroyed by fire over two consecutive days--one on 17 May and two on the 18th.

Georgejdorner (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

He might be referring to 21st May. http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/mannock.php --Mezod (talk) 13:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

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I don't think so. Grub Street books, Pelican books, and the Aerodrome are all careful to note destroyed aircraft and airplanes set afire quite independently. If this is/was a legitimate claim, there should be a reliable source.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Claim of 73 victories should be covered in "Taffy" Jones bio

Hello, all,

I have removed James Ira Thomas Jones'scontoversial claim that his friend Mannock scored 73 victories. It more properly belongs in the Jones bio. As it was before I deleted it, the false total was explained at a greater length than Mannock's real score, which was a ridiculous distortion.

Georgejdorner (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Many sources, including the RAF, officially list Mannock with 73 kills. On my next visit to Cranwell, I will access of one these sources and add the 73 kills back to this page, with the reference. It is important to the history of Mick Mannock. User: Kentish 0838 5 October 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.128.80.154 (talk) 06:38, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Dates

It seems a custom to treat IP edits as though they are an uneducated guess. This article had absolutely no connection with the United States, and they should used in logical - British - format. Day, month year. 81.147.74.229 (talk) 18:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I have just been told that this is not a British article! (here). He's British. He's RFC/RAF. Tell me you're joking. I'm not the sharpest, but jeeeeez. 81.147.74.229 (talk) 18:38, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

No article on Wikipedia is a "British article" or an "American article" or an "Armenian article", etc. etc. They are all Wikipedia articles.

If you disagree with the way the dates are formatted in the article discuss it here and achieve consensus. Thanks, RA0808 ^talk_contribs 18:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

That’s nonsense, and I think you know it. British related articles - places, people, aircraft, politics etc are spelt and denoted in British English. So you're wrong. A cursory look at the appropriate guidelines will show that. So I don't need consensus. Come on. 81.147.74.229 (talk) 18:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Consensus is highly desirable at Wikipedia since the alternative is disruptive edit warring. Referring to other editors as "idiots" and telling them they are "wrong" seldom wins the argument. Logging in, creating a user page, and giving a brief summary of your edits is also helpful. - Asteuartw (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

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Consensus on the subjects of national English dialect has already been reached and recorded at WP:ENGVAR.

Consensus on format of dates, etc. has also been previously reached and recorded. The Manual of Style exists on the same WP page as above, and can be easily reached at WP:MOS.

Notes from a logical Yank. Georgejdorner (talk) 23:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

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Irish birth certificate

Looking at the Irish register office website, if he was born in Ireland, it should be possible to obtain a photocopy of his birth certificate by post for only 6 euros. Somebody who lives in Dublin could check it for even less than this. Anyone want to try? PatGallacher (talk) 21:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Several people have tried: the truth is that his birthplace has never been confirmed, although some people are vandalising the page by claiming Co Cork. user talk: spymaster 20:14 2 August 2016 GMT — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:CBD1:7201:25E9:FB73:E611:9938 (talk) 19:14, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Moderate use of stimulants?

In the 'rules', is it possible to find out exactly what is meant by "Pilots must keep physically fit by exercise and the moderate use of stimulants?" This caught my eye because it could mean many things, especially in the language of the time:

• "Moderate" could, as now, mean either "average, neither especially heavy or especially light" ("moderate use of alcohol"), or it could mean "careful, conservative" (as in "use in moderation").
• "Stimulants" could mean coffee, the most obvious meaning. It could possibly mean something else we consider a stimulant in the modern sense (although since amphetamine was not available in WW1 the only choice would have been cocaine, and that does not seem reasonable.)
• Or, "stimulants" could mean alcohol. No one would call that a stimulant today, but in the usage of the early 20th century it was fairly common.

So he could be advising pilots not to drink heavily, or he could be telling them to drink lots of coffee. Any idea which?

Roches (talk) 22:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Fails verification

The Timewatch program was re-broadcast recently and I recorded it. Nowhere does it suggest the detail contained in our The engine of Mannock's aircraft was hit and immediately caught fire, and shortly after the plane crashed behind German lines. Mannock's body is believed to have been found, though this is unproven, about 250 yards (250m) from the wreck of his machine, perhaps thrown, perhaps jumped. The body showed no gunshot wounds.

The program does not say the engine was hit, just the plane, nor does it say it caught fire immediately, nor speculates whether he jumped or was thrown, nor says where the body was found in relation to it, nor that the body showed no gunshot wounds - it says they simply do not know. The program also does not contain the quote from Inglis in that same section. - Sitush (talk) 12:26, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

If you read the entry, it doesn’t link the quote to the Timewatch programme. The quote is from a different source. Kentish — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.128.80.154 (talk) 06:41, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Mick Mannock IWM Q 60800.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:50, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Birthplace verification using genealogy records?

Edward Mannock appears in two census' of the UK. It appears Edward may have had a younger sister, not listed in the article.

Census entry showing birthplace as Sussex.

Census entry showing birthplace as Brighton, Sussex.

No sign of a birth certificate in this database, but I haven't ruled it out.

Confusing statement re sitting "as the Honourable Member for Waterford" that needs clarification

In the "Early life and education" it states that Mannock "sat as the Honourable Member for Waterford, the seat of John Redmond leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party". However it does not make clear where he "sat" as "Member for Waterford". Clearly he did not sit for the actual Waterford seat in parliament, so what does this actually mean? the previous text relates to his membership of the Wellingborough Independent Labour Party, so was it in a a group connected to that? If so this needs to be made clear. Later in the article there is mention of him trying to start a branch of the "Wellingborough Parliament", so is it related to this. I know some Scottish cities had this time had "Parliaments" which were political debating and discussion societies that modeled themselves on the Parliament of the United Kingdom and whose members "represented" seats based on real parliamentary constituencies, so I wonder if it was something like this? If this is it needs to be made clear. Perhaps someone could check the original source and amend the text to clarify. Dunarc (talk) 23:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Just checked the cited source on Google Books. It says that in 1908 the Wellingborough YMCA took over a 'large building on Church Street, opposite the town's Post Office' and that Mannock became secretary of the YMCA's mock parliament and 'sat' as the MP for Waterford, in reality Redmond's seat. (Presumably, in the mock debates, Mannock argued for Home Rule.) Amended the text accordingly. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:14, 25 May 2022 (UTC)