Talk:Egyptian Crisis (2011–2014)

Splitting

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a Splitting. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Splitting to Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution (pre-Mubarak's resignation) and Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution (post-Mubarak's resignation) while keeping a short summary on this page. Consensus is clear now. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 05:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

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I think we need to split the page again into two other pages while keeping summary here. The page need to split into two pages; one dealing with protests before Mubarak stepped down and post-Mubarak. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 12:46, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Is that a good way of doing it, instead of a week-by-week breakdown? 65.93.15.125 (talk) 06:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be easiest to split it into 2 pages, one for post-mubarak, and one during the protests — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyperskier96 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Support. Also with the split here, direct links should be added to the main 2011 Egyptian revolution page so both timeline pages can be easily found. Jeff Carr (talk) 18:45, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

In the future, after numerous similar revolutions around the world, there will be one article titled something like The Egyptian Revolution of 2011. It will be one page. It will tell the whole story. That is what this page should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.78.174 (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Outline

Before Mubarak's resignation content

Draft

27 January 2011:Egyptian police shot dead one protester in the Sinai Peninsula on Thursday, raising the official death toll to at least five on the third day of public protests in the country. Other sources said this number may be much higher. Bikya Masr staffer was detained, spent 24 hours in detention. Thousands of protesters in Suez, two hours east of Cairo, continued to clash with riot police, which have responded with tear gas, sound bombs and water cannons in an effort to disperse the demonstrations. Suez has become the tipping point for what is now being termed the Egyptian revolution, as reports of violence flow across social networks. Many are referring to the area as a “war zone.” There has been a curfew in place in the city for the past two days and police are attempting to keep people out of the city. Reports that the military has taken over from the police have also trickled in.

30 January 2011:As the Egyptian military exerts more security measures in an effort to push protesters away from central gathering points in the capital Cairo, bodies were discovered in front of the interior ministry building, where police forces seem to have shot and killed protesters on Saturday. According to reports from journalists on the ground, bodies were left on the ground overnight by police, which is likely to spur more anger from Egyptians calling for the resignation of President Hosni Mubarak. In the past 24 hours at least 100 Egyptians have been reported to have been killed across the country. The rising death toll is not expected to remain stagnant as more reports are coming in. At least 1000 people, and possibly more, have been injured in the five days of demonstrations that began on January 25. Egyptians again defied government calls for a nationwide curfew on Sunday evening as hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets in Cairo and elsewhere. The protesters continue to demand the resignation of President Hosni Mubarak and his entire government. Sunday was the sixth day of demonstrations in Egypt. Protesters are demanding President Hosni Mubarak step down and allow a transitional government to be established. What is usually a day of massive traffic in the country on the first day of the work week has instead turned into another day of popular uprising. Bloggers and campaigners expect demonstrations to be the largest since protests began on January 25.

31 January 2011: On Monday evening, the Egyptian army issued a statement that said freedom of expression would be guaranteed as long as it was peaceful. It came after another day of protests in Egypt that saw tens of thousands of citizens take to the street in continued pressure to force President Hosni Mubarak’s government to quit. According to United Nations rights organization unconfirmed reports put the death toll from the week of demonstrations aimed at ending the 30-year reign of President Hosni Mubarak may be as many as 300 people. Millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Tuesday in a bolstered attempt to oust President Hosni Mubarak from his three decade reign. As night fell in Cairo, tens of thousands remained in central Cairo’s main Tahrir Square, chanting and demanding the resignation of the president. The scene on the ground, eyewitnesses told Bikya Masr throughout the day was “pure excitement and hope in the days to come.” The 8th day of demonstrations began as early as 7 am local time, with citizens making their way to meeting points in Cairo, Alexandria and other locations across the country. By noon, estimates put the number of protesters in central Cairo at more than one million, achieving the goal of a million person march. “These conditions are about to take us to the unknown,” Mubarak said in his second speech to the nation. There are “difficult tests” and some have “wreaked havoc” and caused violence during this time.

6 February 2011: Opposition groups, including the banned Muslim Brotherhood, hold talks with the government, chaired by the vice-president. They say a core demand for the removal of Mubarak is not met. The sides agree to draft a road map for talks and a committee is set up to study constitutional issues. Banks re-open after a week-long closure. Thousands gather in Tahrir Square joining noon prayers to honor "martyrs" killed in the bloodshed.

Comment

I know the draft needs a major copy editing and I would like some help doing so. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 08:52, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources

• Timeline: 17 days of protests against Hosni Mubarak
• Timeline of Egypt’s revolution: week 1
• Timeline: Egypt's revolution
• Timeline shows path to freedom in Egypt

deleting nothing

I've deleted a whole bunch of dates where nothing happened. It saves a ton of space don'tcha think?Ericl (talk) 14:32, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Two almost the same timelines and both idle. Merge?

Currently there are two (or more) timelines, there's the Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution with before and after Mubarak very detailed sections, and then, again very detailed, there are the Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution under Hosni Mubarak's rule and Timeline of the 2011 Egyptian revolution under Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. They look like they have not been cross-checked and most importantly none of these timelines has been updated for quite some time. I tried to update one of them when I came across the other. They should really be merged down somehow.Trek qo (talk) 16:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Expand!

This page is nothing more than an index it seems, I think we should expand it into an actual article about what is an ongoing civil conflict that began with the January 25th Revolution and continues to this day. Charles Essie (talk) 01:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree, this "article" looks terrible and should be expanded with a brief description of each event in the timeline. In addition, the Aftermath of the Egyptian Revolution of 2011 page should have its content merged here and then later deleted in my opinion as it is useless and might be confused with other events that followed the 2011 revolution.

I also propose moving this article's name to 2011–present Egyptian civil unrest or better yet Egyptian civil unrest (2011–present). "Timeline" can be added as a section encompassing the events instead. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:24, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this should be a timeline article, it should a main article, and as a main article it should have much more depth and detail, we did the above merge, we gave it a new title, the only thing we haven't done yet is turn this into a propper article. Charles Essie (talk) 01:09, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge from Aftermath of the Egyptian Revolution of 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested merge. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the merge request was: merge.GreyShark (dibra) 20:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

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While knowing that the merged into article may sound like an index and looks in terrible shape, but it's the article that currently encompasses all current Egypt-related events including the Egyptian Revolution of 2011 up until now with the Islamist unrest in Egypt (2013–present) and its template is added to almost every article about the events. Aftermath of the Egyptian Revolution of 2011 might confuse many people with the tonnes of different events that followed the revolt. I suggest that in case of a merge, a new section should be created in the civil unrest article called "Aftermath" or "Impact", then list under it issues like economy, Sinai insurgency..etc. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:39, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Strongly support! Charles Essie (talk) 16:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support - originally it as created to distinguish the revolution of 2011 and later events, but now it seems all like part of one larger crisis.GreyShark (dibra) 05:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested merge. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Egyptian Crisis (2011–present). There is a consensus to broaden the topic to include all aspects of he crisis, but no consensus to expand it to include other aspects of Egypt's history since 2011. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:18, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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Timeline of the 2011–present Egyptian civil unrest → Egyptian Crisis (2011–present) – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. --Relisted. ^walk victor falk ^talk 01:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)Fitzcarmalan (talk) 21:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC) There are tonnes of sources referring to the individual events in Egypt from 2011 till now as a "crisis" and this article overlaps them all.
A coup d'état and the current conflict which includes → [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] as well as this and this prove that it's more than just a "civil unrest" now. We can also definitely include the increasing violence in Sinai as a response to the coup and the Cairo sit-ins dispersal like this and this. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 21:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support - in my opinion perhaps the best solution to summarize civil and militant interconnected events of violence, which have unfolded in Egypt since February 2011.GreyShark (dibra) 16:34, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: As History of Egypt (2011–present) is redirected here, this article should discuss the entire topic of history since 2011, not only the unrest. — Petr Matas 13:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support Good idea. --Panam2014 (talk) 07:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Impact section

I think the economy section is the only valid part here, since the other three are not a significant 'impact' of the crisis and two of them (the persecution of Copts and the sexual assaults sections) deal with issues that were already there before the 2011 revolution, while the Attacks on foreign missions section is by no means an 'impact' no matter how well-sourced it is. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Title

Kudzu1 moved this article some time ago from 2011-present to 2011-14, a move which I supported. Greyshark09, however, appears to disagree and moved it back to the initial title. (copied from Talk:List of ongoing armed conflicts#Egyptian_unrest_again) I've managed to find an article from International Business Times which clearly says that Egypt's "period of political tumult, marked by economic decline, social unrest and a flirtation with popular democracy" (an obvious reference to the Egyptian crisis) has "effectively ended" with Sisi's ascent to power. The last planned "uprising" against Sisi on November 28 last year failed considerably. And yes, 20+ people or so were killed during the last January 25th revolution anniversary, nothing significant came out of it either. I think we need to agree on something regarding this issue before making a formal move discussion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree and was disappointed to see the page moved back to the old title. I think this is something we suffer from a lot on Wikipedia; something happens, we mark it as "ongoing", most if not all editors gradually move on to other topics, and it remains open-ended indefinitely. (I would argue the same thing has happened with the original Arab Spring article, even though "spring" has long since turned to winter.) Regardless, we should work toward a consensus on this. -Kudzu1 (talk) 09:25, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Same thing happened with the Gezi Park protests article. It was titled 2013-14 protests in Turkey because no end date could be determined, until it was recently moved by an editor. Things like that need to stop. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

No problem to move it back on my behalf, but is there an article on ongoing insurgency of Muslim Brotherhood (except 2013-4 protests)?GreyShark (dibra) 20:20, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I have Y moved the article back to Kudzu1's variant. I believe further discussion regarding the ongoing militant attacks not related to the Sinai insurgency should be taken to Talk:List of ongoing armed conflicts#Egyptian_unrest_again instead. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Timeline

The Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy has a special timeline page on its website that may come in handy for editors of this topic. Entries begin with some 2010 background events of the "crisis", and they somehow end with Sisi's ascent to power. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 28 November 2015

Egyptian Crisis (2011–14) → Egyptian Crisis (2011–present) – If the post-coup unrest in Egypt is not yet over, the Egyptian Crisis might not yet be over. George Ho (talk) 15:52, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - The period of violent protests gradually ended between the November 2013 signing of the Egyptian protest law and Sisi's election in June 2014. Do you have sources saying that the protests are ongoing? The post-coup unrest article's title was moved from 2013–14 to 2013–present without consensus about two months ago, and the issue is currently being discussed here. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 02:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Sisi's accession to power doesn't make the Crisis over yet, does it? I searched proof that the Crisis is over, but I do not see one, Fitz. --George Ho (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Because there is no common name at hand, "Egyptian Crisis" was made up by Wikipedia editors (actually by me) as a WP:NDESC title to describe this four-year period of political turmoil since the 2011 revolution till the 2014 presidential election. You won't find sources saying "The Egyptian Crisis ended on X date", because this "crisis" can also be referred to as "civil unrest", "political violence", and sometimes simply as the "Egyptian Revolution" [13] (I prefer this one). You will also find some analysts and scholars describing the coup or the current regime's consolidation of power as a "counter-revolution" [14] or referring to it by some French revolutionary terms like "Thermidor" [15] [16] and "18 Brumaire" [17] [18] among others. I did, however, come across this IBT article stating the following: The Arab world's most populous nation had undergone a period political tumult, marked by economic decline, social unrest and a flirtation with popular democracy that effectively ended with Sisi's ascent. Yes, I'm aware that the sources I've found (FP and IBT) aren't enough, but it's still better than nothing. Do you have sources saying that the current events (if there are any) are a continuation of this crisis, political turmoil, revolutionary period or whatever? If we had this discussion a year ago, I might've had a different opinion, per WP:CRYSTAL. But now it's been two years since the coup, and no significant revolutionary movement has emerged since then. If we keep marking this as an ongoing crisis, just because of there are some minor protests today, it will remain so for years to come because there hasn't been a time in Egypt's history without protests and dissent. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:37, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Using "crisis" wouldn't be original research, would it? Lockup of lawyers, football stampede, recent low-level clash, clash between residents and police. Are they convincing? George Ho (talk) 18:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does sound controversial in the current capitalized form. I also agree that it could amount to original research because what came to mind back then when I came up with it was the regular "Egypt crisis: Dozens killed in clashes between X and Y" news format, which I admit was wrong on my part. Feel free to propose a different title with a term other than "crisis", but the date brackets need to be dealt with first.

So no, I'm not convinced by these one-off events that are expected to persist for months or even years to come. Clashes have taken place annually on January 25th (anniversary of the Egyptian Revolution of 2011) and each time they resulted in casualties. Doesn't mean they are a continuation of the 2011-14 turmoil. The lockup of lawyers is not part of the crisis itself, but of the wider ongoing crackdown that put an end to it. I made a proposal regarding the "post-coup unrest" article (regarding its scope and title) in the discussion I linked you to earlier. Please take a look and tell me what you think before we go further down this road. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Withdrawing request. We will discuss "Crisis" as a title soon. George Ho (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC: "Egyptian crisis" as a title

Is "Egyptian crisis" the appropriate title for this article? Why or why not? If not, what alternative title do you propose? --George Ho (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'd favor "Egyptian Revolution" over the current title per some of the points I made in the above discussion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• As your discussion above suggests, this issue is complicated and could be handled in a number of ways. In general, I think the term "Egyptian crisis" is most useful because it assembles the revolution, coup and associated events into one article. We could, per George Ho, name it (2011-present) and therefore incorporate more about the contemporary insurgency and ongoing crackdown. Or, we could describe the crisis in the past tense, but state that it led to (or "spawned") an insurgency in the Sinai peninsula, and has resulted in a continued crackdown against journalists, political opponents, and so forth. Realistically, these elements (insurgency, crackdown) must belong in any overview article, so I think that the semantic question of whether the crisis helped create them, or includes them, is secondary. -Darouet (talk) 15:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• Creating "overview" articles shouldn't be automatically regarded as the ideal solution to similar problems we encounter on Wikipedia, though in this case it certainly looks helpful and non-WP:OR. But the thing is, we need sources suggesting that the ongoing insurgency and crackdown are part of the same sequence of political events (the "crisis") that includes the 2011 uprising, the 2011-12 SCAF transition, the 2012-13 protests under Morsi, up till the 2013 coup and the following "counter-revolutionary" rollback. These look more fit in an "aftermath" or (better yet) "impact" section in this article. I've initiated a move request concerning the post-coup period here. That proposal would include both ongoing and non-ongoing subjects in one article. Feel free to join the discussion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:58, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - the insurgencies in Egypt and Sinai continue and distabilize Egypt, meaning the crisis is still somewhat ongoing. Therefore Egyptian crisis (2011-present) is suitable.GreyShark (dibra) 23:04, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

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Suggested edit for removing bias

May I suggest removing the following paragraph from the section "Initiation of the Protests"

"The Muslim Brotherhood’s support of and participation in the Egyptian Revolution was no accident, but a planned and orchestrated attempt to support a regime change that would put them closer to achieving their goal of installing Islam at the center of the country’s political agenda. Armbrust (834-864) suggested in his paper that the collapse of the Mubarak regime during the Egyptian Revolution of 2011 may not have been directly caused by the Muslim Brotherhood, but their participation was a calculated one, as evidenced by their opportunistic actions during the conflict. In another study that was published in the Middle East Report, El-Ghobashy (2-13) suggested that the Egyptian Revolution was supposed to be a political exercise that should have brought back the value of the people in real politics—to reaffirm their power in choosing their leader. However, as El-Ghobashy (2-13) noted, it did not turn out to be that way, because of the many opportunistic groups and forces that took advantage of the weakened government and revolutionary forces to further their interests and aspirations for Egypt and the region. This set of actions perfectly describe what the Muslim Brotherhood did during the Egyptian Revolution. The bottom line is that the outcome of the revolution should have benefited the Egyptian people more, had the Islamist groups not intervened."

This is a loaded section with clear anti-Islamist bias. Though it does cite some analysis, the narrative itself is biased and speculative. For example, the use of the phrase "The revolution should have benefited the Egyptian people more, had the Islamist groups not intervened."

82.21.162.192 (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you, and it is actually a pity that this information wasn't removed earlier as it isn't in line with Wikipedia's policy. I removed the sections that contained biased information and replaced them with referenced information.

Thank you for your suggestion!

Fauked (talk) 12:13, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Improved and elaborated Egyptian Crisis article

Hi all,

Over the past few weeks, I delved into this article in order to improve its content and to provide it with more depth and detail. In doing this, I acted upon the remarks made on this talk page, such as Charles Essie's request to expand this article into a main article instead of just a timeline article, and the more recent suggestion of 82.21.162.192 to remove biased information. Some of the main edits/additions I made:

• Lead section: Expanded and re-organized section, including the introductory sentence for more clarity on the scope of the article
• Provided background on discontent and demands of the Egyptian population throughout the whole article
• Outline: Re-organized outline of events, which contained some irrelevant and inconsistent information and sections, such as "Initiation of the protests" and "Relevant history of the Brotherhood".
• In line with a remark on the impact section made in 2014, I expanded this part by writing a new section on "Counterrevolution" and by adding significantly to "Economic impact" and "Sinai insurgency". This section puts the article's title "Egyptian crisis 2011-2014" more in perspective, by providing evidence on how repression and violence has been continued after the election of el-Sisi.
• In general: A lot of information, in particular under the events section, contained unsourced information and/or irrelevant content regarding the article. Considerable parts contained biased and unsubstantiated information, clearly showing the author's opinion, which seemed to me highly problematic for a Wikipedia article (I refer especially to the "Initiation of the protests" and "Egypt post-revolution" sections here, containing clear anti-Islamist bias). I either removed or replaced these parts with reliable information, supported by academic works and articles and up-to-date internet sources. I regret if someone put lots of energy in these sections.
• References: I doubled the initial references, replaced dead links, random or unreliable websites, and edited citations to bring them in line with Wikipedia's citing rules.

I hope that my edits satisfy you, and that the public benefits from this revision. Shout out to me if you have any comments or would like to discuss!

Fauked (talk) 11:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)