Talk:Eidos-Montréal

Requested move 28 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus the article defaults to staying at the stable title. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

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Eidos Montréal → Eidos Montreal – I am proposing to revert the technical requested page move that was performed here on 4 December 2016.[1] Per MOS:TRADEMARK#General rules, "Do not 'correct' the spelling, punctuation, diacritics, or grammar of trademarks to be different from anything found in reliable sources" (emphasis added). Most of the reliable sources cited in this article do NOT use the diacritic mark. Zzyzx11 (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Per the precedent of the Montreal article title not having the accent._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

  Not a valid rationale; Montréal has a conventional proper name in English: Montreal. Eidos Montréal does not.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  01:08, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nominator is mistaking the facts, the guidelines, and what WP does with diacritics. Eidos Montréal is the actual proper name (easily confirmed at the official website), and we do not remove diacritics from names when they are there for linguistic reasons (see, e.g., Nestlé), even if some journalistic sources do drop them (many do it to all names, as a matter of house style). MOS:TM is concerned with diacritics added simply for trademark stylization (e.g., This Is Spinal Tap is our article title, despite the movie poster giving a "metal umlaut" and a dotless Turkish ı in it, This Is Spın̈al Tap). The diacritic should be retained here for the same reason it's retained in various other company names (in English, in English-speaking countries), e.g. Québec Cartier Mining Company, Café Henry Burger, Léger Marketing, Liberté Inc., Montezuma Copper Mining Company of Santa Fé, New Mexico, Garduño's, Santacafé, La Viña Winery, Café Café, Café Allegro, Caffè Nero, etc., etc., etc.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  01:08, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• See also essentially opposite RM at Talk:Square Enix Montreal#Requested move 28 October 2017.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  01:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose—normally I don't like diacritics in English, but SMcCandlish has a point, doesn't he? Tony (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose – normally I do like to preserve diacritics of foreign names in English, and this one is commonly accented in better sources (e.g. books); some try but get it backwards, but at least they try. There's nothing in MOS:TM to suggest dropping meaningful (not-decorative) diacritics. Dicklyon (talk) 03:01, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Lordtobi (✉) 17:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Bandwagoning, eh? If invoking "facts" why not actually check them? Our reliable sources far more often refer to the company without its diacritic than with, despite its official/"proper" style. Same in the NYT. Same as the sources currently in the article. "Montréal has a conventional proper name in English: Montreal." Well it's the same here—our sources use "Montreal" not "Montréal". Indeed, what sources even do use the diacritic? czar 17:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose this product certainly does include the accent in all reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:50, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

(1) This is a company, not a "product". (2) Literally none of the reliable sources use the é, nevertheless "all". czar 15:59, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

(2) Tobias Winnerling, ‎Florian Kerschbaumer Early Modernity and Video Games 2014 - Page 52 1443862347 "In 2011, a new studio joined this highly successful group when Eidos Montréal released DEUS EX: HUMAN REVOLUTION (published by the Japanese company Square Enix of FINAL FANTASY fame)." and so on. WP:RS for font issues means using enabled sources. As far as I can see all reliable/enabled sources are spelling the company/product whatever correctly. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

None of the reliable sources in the article use the accented é. You'll need more than one mention in an academic book to make your case. czar 16:18, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Are you able to see the comments above? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

As opposed to? You said "this product certainly does include the accent in all reliable sources" but the very sources in the article contradict that statement—none of them use the accent. In reply, you showed a single mention in an academic source. So the claim that "all reliable sources" use the accent is unsupported and, in fact, contradicted. czar 20:29, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm talking about all the comments, can you present the case why sources with full fonts are being used to evaluate the titling issue rather than sources with limited fonts? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:52, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

? If you're implying that the sources in the article don't support accent characters, that's not true... [2][3][4] They support accented characters when the accent is commonly used in the subject's name, which, again, is not the case for Eidos Montreal czar 04:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Czar makes a very strong argument that "Eidos Montreal" is the most common title in reliable sources and WP:DIACRITICS tells us that is the is what we should follow. Jenks24 (talk) 10:13, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Czar and Jenks - the English WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DIACRITICS tell us what to do here. SMcCandlish's point is a valid one, re Nestlé etc, but it doesn't apply to this specific case, where there is a clear preponderance of sources using the non-diacritic form.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:39, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jenks24: @Amakuru: are Czar's sources webpages or are they printed books with full font sets? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:52, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

They are reliable sources. Czar has demonstrated above that these sources include diacritics/accents when they choose to, e.g. with Pokémon. Not including them when discussing this topic is therefore a deliberate decision, not something they are unable to do. Jenks24 (talk) 13:00, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jenks24: Well you and some others may believe that video game websites make deliberate considered decisions about titling which are as good as printed books. I don't. These sources look like typical web junk to me. So oppose on the basis that these sources are not as reliable as books. Plus of course we do know that Montréal is the correct title because the company uses it, which they would do as a French Canadian company. Duh. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:07, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Re "Typical web junk" - thankfully per WP:RS the community doesn't have such a low opinion of web and online news sources as you do, otherwise writing articles on certain subjects could become very tricky. If a website *never* uses diacritics that's one thing, but if it's clear they have them as a tool in their toolbox but don't use them in certain situations, then we follow that.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support. The official company name in running text actually appears to be "Eidos-Montréal", with a dash.[5][6] We don't include the dash as sources rarely use it; if we're excluding that, there's no reason that we must keep the accented "e" if sources don't consistently use it. Czar appears to be correct that most sources don't use it; just looking at the first two pages of Google News results, only 6 of the 20 hits include the accent. It is true that these decisions are best made by looking at sources that sometimes do use accents to see whether the use it for this company or not. That's always going to be a judgment call, but as Czar says, most reliable sources for video games and sources like the New York Times (which does use accents in various other cases) consistently don't include it for Eidos Montreal. Even Canadian English sources - including the Montreal Gazette, the city's main English paper - don't use the accent in "Eidos Montreal", even though they use accents in other names.[7] As such, WP:DIACRITICS, recommends excluding it here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:12, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
• Not sure why this has been relisted. The proposal failed to gain support and is contrary to WP:FRMOS which applies to French Canadian topics as well as French topics. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hyphen

Eidos Montréal's website consistently calls the company "Eidos-Montréal" (with a hyphen); so does the Quebec legal register and related press releases by Square Enix. Should we adpot this stylization? Lordtobi (✉) 20:43, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Dawn Engine AfD merger

I added details from Dawn Engine article to a new Technology subsection, thought the parts regarding technical details might have too much details and may need cleanup. Merko (talk) 10:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

"Games Developed" table

The news about Fable were not officially announced anywhere.

If it is to stay, rumored Deus Ex 5 should be added as well.

If DX5 isn't being added, then Fable should be removed. Merko (talk) 20:05, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Lots of rumours flying around at the moment. I chose to just remove the entry. IceWelder [✉] 20:11, 8 November 2022 (UTC)