Talk:Jewish emigration from Romania

Requested move 10 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There is a weak consensus to move to the proposed name (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:08, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

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Emigration of Jews from Romania → Jewish emigration from Romania – I've actually made this move request to ask the opinion of other editors as I am not sure what the title of this article should be. I've thought of something like "Exodus of Jews from Romania", but it seems that most Jews "voluntarily" went to Israel, so I don't think it fits. I am also wondering, should I use a title of the type "Jewish something..." or "something of Jews..."? Another option is "Aliyah of Jews from Romania" or just "Aliyah from Romania". I thought of using a title that would be universal in all articles of this kind, but there is no common format between them. What should I do? Super Ψ Dro 16:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - I think the title of the article is fine the way it is and it should not be changed. It should stay as is in my view. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 22:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. Each of the two forms is perfectly acceptable, but English Wikipedia appears to have a greater number of articles that use the proposed form "X Emigration from Y" than those that use the currently existing form "Emigration of X from Y". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
• Neutral - I don't see a big difference between the two. But to me the bigger problem is that neither really fits what the article is about - emigration specifically to Israel. I would expect such an article titled this way would discuss emigration in general to a number of places, especially the United States.--Dan Carkner (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Regarding that, aliyah would serve as it means "emigration to (the Land of) Israel", but I am not sure if I should use that. Super Ψ Dro 12:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Using that term would come with its own problems maybe (as an "insider" terminology?), but it gets closer to what the article is actually about, not to mention it's used in the "series" the article claims to be a part of.--Dan Carkner (talk) 18:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Not sure how it fits into this whole discussion but I created an article for Fusgeyer a while ago, a movement of Jewish emigrants from Romania who organized into bands and would leave the country on foot. It didn't occur to me at the time that there was a separate article for Jewish emigration from Romania that this could just be a subsection of.--Dan Carkner (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

If you are suggesting a merge, I don't think it's necessary. I see the fusgeyers as notable enough for having an article. Super Ψ Dro 21:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

It's notable enough, sure. I'm just back to thinking that the article titled Jewish Emigration from Romania or whatever is settled upon would contain various sections and not be limited to emigration to Israel, unless it's titled more specifically. --Dan Carkner (talk) 22:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

The vast majority of emigrant Romanian Jews went to Israel. The ones that went to other countries sure deserve a mention, but I doubt they are so important as to change this article's focus to Israel. Super Ψ Dro 14:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough! --Dan Carkner (talk) 22:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• After 7 days, I think the most adequate title is "Aliyah from Romania", which is at least used by two other articles and is short and precise (even if few people will know what does aliyah mean). I'll move the article to that title if nobody proposes something else before this discussion is closed.

• I would like to propose an alternative name for the page: "Emigration of Jews from Romania to Israel." Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 22:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your proposal, but I find this excessively long. I think the title should ideally be as short as possible. Super Ψ Dro 14:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The Zionist POV of this article is pretty clear. The article as is, is not good enough overall, in my view, and it is laso not very well sourced overall. For example, the lead statement that the first Zionist congress in history was held in Romania in 1881 is not sourced at all. I now see that you are the creator of the article, and you also seem to be now hell bent on using clear Zionist terminology right at the English title of the article in English Wikipedia. I don't think this is a good idea, and this article needs a lot of work on it in my view. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 18:07, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

It is not my job to expand the article further. I just wanted to create a page on this topic and not make it a stub. Not well sourced? All the paragraphs are sourced with their respective references. This includes the 1881 Zionist conference in Romania. It is pointless for me to include multiple citations to the same source multiple times in the same paragraph. I see absolutely no NPOV problems and if there were, it would not be related to Zionist vocabulary. What excessive wording is there? Aliyah, Land of Israel and what else? And even if I happened to use too much Zionist wording, what would be wrong? It is like saying that an article is not neutral for using, for example, too much communist wording even though the article is about communism. And I usually give a last rework to the articles before publishing them (or shortly after doing so) and start to link them to other pages of Wikipedia, but I have not done this on this one because I wanted to wait until we got an established title. With all due respect, I see all these complaints unnecessary and wrong. Super Ψ Dro 21:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

And, as I said before, one of the reasons I have thought later that using "Aliyah" in the title may be a better option is because it is used in other two articles, Aliyah from Ethiopia, Aliyah from Latin America in the 2000s and maybe 1970s Soviet Union aliyah and 1990s post-Soviet aliyah can be counted too. The other articles about this topic that do not have an operation name are Jewish Migration from Lebanon Post-1948, an horrible name, and Migration of Moroccan Jews to Israel, which could be applied here. Super Ψ Dro 21:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't checked the source for the first Zionist congress in 1881, even before the start of the First Aliyha. The assertion about the chief Rabbi of Bukovina emigrating to Safed in the 18th century, i.e. way before the date where historians agree to mark the start of modern Zionism, is certainly unsourced. I think it is good that you make an effort to create good articles in Wikipedia, and I don't want to discourage you or to simply criticize your work without reason. But I still believe the article could be improved along the lines of my criticism. And I would prefer that the title of the article does not use overtly Zionist terminology, not in English. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 22:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

That whole paragraph (inlcuding the 1881 conference) is based on page 248 of cited source. I guess I could replace Land of Israel a few times but I don't see anything else that might need to be changed. Super Ψ Dro 11:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

This article should/would be a section of an overall article on the history of Romanian Jewry or of Romanian Jews, if there was such an article. And there certainly may be one. This article would also be a sub-section of an article on overall emigration of Jews from Romania in the modern period, if there were such an article. Surely Romanian Jews emigrated out of Romania to many other places too, other than Israel. But, as it stands, this article is a very narrow article precisely on this narrow and specific subject: "Emigration of Jews from Romania to Israel." And since this is precisely the subject of the article, this should be title of it also. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 17:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

The Romanian Jews who emigrated to a site other than Israel are very few and, as I said above, I doubt they are so important as to change this article's focus to Israel. This article can still be expanded a lot, I only started it. If all the information that could be added to this article was merged into another, it would double its size. This article covers a notable enough subject. Super Ψ Dro 22:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.