Talk:Energy in the State of Palestine
Latest comment: 7 years ago by Guanaco in topic Rename to "Energy in the Palestinian Territories"
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Merge with Gaza crisis
editI'd like to propose that Gaza electricity crisis be merged here. It's a pretty weak article which needs work in its own right, and a lot of the content on the page is already covered here, so it would be easy to do. TrickyH (talk) 22:21, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. The crisis is a major on-going (past 2 years or so?) event, which is speculated in multiple RS as a possible cause for future war, revolt against Hamas (and there were street demonstrations in Gaza a few months ago - unusual in a totalitarian regime), or possibly moveds to de-jure independence in Gaza or at the very least modification of Protocol on Economic Relations (current Gaza pays customs on imported goods to Israel (at the point of entry) which are then passed to the PA. If the PA no longer funds Gaza with its share of custom duties....). Regarding Energy in the State of Palestine - I think this article should be split into a separate Gaza and West Bank articles. There really is no reason to combine them. The West Bank system has a long history, independent companies, and actual infrastructure. Gaza, on the hand, was and is a short spur from the mandatory / Egyptian and currently the Israeli system - with little independent infrastructure. Politically, Gaza and West-Bank were distinct in this regard pre-Oslo (1994) and post 2000s (take your pick of Intifada2, Israel's withdrawal, or the Hamas takeover - each of which deepened the divide between the two).Icewhiz (talk) 05:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well I'm not strongly wedded to this proposal, so if editors think it's worthwhile documenting in its own right, we'll need to find some more reputable sources and expand quite a bit. But I do strongly disagree with your rationale re splitting; right now the consensus is that we make articles that cover the State of Palestine, with content branches if necessary. Your argument here is inconsistent with that and would put this page at odds with most of the content on the wiki.TrickyH (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- I've just done quite a bit of improvement to the crises page - with plenty of sourcing. The crises dates back to circa 2013. Regarding splitting - this is a wider discussion in general - and with the growing split of Gaza from the West Bank - the position these should be in one Palestine article is becoming less tenable (of course circumstances can change - but the longer they remain this way, treating them in a unified fashion becomes less and less tenable. The CIA factbook has a separate Gaza entry - [1]). Specifically regarding power - there was never any actual link between the two systems (beyond being supplied by Israel during the post-1967 period), and they have quite a different history - the West Bank system dates back to the mandate - Jerusalem District Electricity Company, whereas the Gazan system really was always a rump or short spur off of whomever. It makes little sense to combine - and this particular article doesn't even divide them into subsections (lumping them all together). The wider energy picture (in the sense of fuel) is also quite separate - imports from Israel aside (though there are different issues regarding them in Gaza and the West Bank), as there is an undeveloped gas field off of Gaza and Gaza has in the past extensively smuggled subsidized fuel from Egypt - whereas the West Bank is dependent on Israel (and maybe potentially Jordan in the future). Icewhiz (talk) 07:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Great, thanks for that. I just saw this piece of news that suggests the page for this crisis is worth working on ASAP. As for the rest - as you said there's a wider discussion to be had, but to use a context I understand well - the energy networks of Perth, the Northern Territory, and Sydney in Australia have never been connected. That doesn't mean we need to have a split in Energy in Australia. Obviously the political contexts are rather different, but with appropriate WP:ContentForking (such as the crisis article) I don't think it's necessary.TrickyH (talk) 07:30, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- If there is no connection between the Australian systems - it might make sense to split them as well. But at least in Australia we have a unified government and no clear calls of cessation or splitting - so you at least have a federal system with the ability to shift resources/funding. PA / Gaza / West-Bank - is a complex issue. They were unified politically 1920-1948, weren't 1948-1967, controlled separately (different laws (Egyptian vs. Jordanian) applied) under Israeli military occupation 1967-1994, Unified briefly at least in a nominal sense 1994-2000, growing splits from 2000-2005 (as part intifada2 - Israel disconnected the movement between the two), Israel disengagement in 2005, and Hamas takeover from 2007. I'm not taking up the wiki torch of calling to split all these articles up now (and some still remain viable as joint articles - e.g. the major Palestinian political parties still operate in both) - but on issues where there was historically little connection and currently little connection between the two (and power is one of these) - grouping them together is somewhat questionable.Icewhiz (talk) 07:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- A batter parallel would be Energy in Taiwan and Energy in China - in that both claim (or claimed for many years in Republic of China (ROC)'s case) to be China.Icewhiz (talk) 08:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- If there is no connection between the Australian systems - it might make sense to split them as well. But at least in Australia we have a unified government and no clear calls of cessation or splitting - so you at least have a federal system with the ability to shift resources/funding. PA / Gaza / West-Bank - is a complex issue. They were unified politically 1920-1948, weren't 1948-1967, controlled separately (different laws (Egyptian vs. Jordanian) applied) under Israeli military occupation 1967-1994, Unified briefly at least in a nominal sense 1994-2000, growing splits from 2000-2005 (as part intifada2 - Israel disconnected the movement between the two), Israel disengagement in 2005, and Hamas takeover from 2007. I'm not taking up the wiki torch of calling to split all these articles up now (and some still remain viable as joint articles - e.g. the major Palestinian political parties still operate in both) - but on issues where there was historically little connection and currently little connection between the two (and power is one of these) - grouping them together is somewhat questionable.Icewhiz (talk) 07:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Great, thanks for that. I just saw this piece of news that suggests the page for this crisis is worth working on ASAP. As for the rest - as you said there's a wider discussion to be had, but to use a context I understand well - the energy networks of Perth, the Northern Territory, and Sydney in Australia have never been connected. That doesn't mean we need to have a split in Energy in Australia. Obviously the political contexts are rather different, but with appropriate WP:ContentForking (such as the crisis article) I don't think it's necessary.TrickyH (talk) 07:30, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- I've just done quite a bit of improvement to the crises page - with plenty of sourcing. The crises dates back to circa 2013. Regarding splitting - this is a wider discussion in general - and with the growing split of Gaza from the West Bank - the position these should be in one Palestine article is becoming less tenable (of course circumstances can change - but the longer they remain this way, treating them in a unified fashion becomes less and less tenable. The CIA factbook has a separate Gaza entry - [1]). Specifically regarding power - there was never any actual link between the two systems (beyond being supplied by Israel during the post-1967 period), and they have quite a different history - the West Bank system dates back to the mandate - Jerusalem District Electricity Company, whereas the Gazan system really was always a rump or short spur off of whomever. It makes little sense to combine - and this particular article doesn't even divide them into subsections (lumping them all together). The wider energy picture (in the sense of fuel) is also quite separate - imports from Israel aside (though there are different issues regarding them in Gaza and the West Bank), as there is an undeveloped gas field off of Gaza and Gaza has in the past extensively smuggled subsidized fuel from Egypt - whereas the West Bank is dependent on Israel (and maybe potentially Jordan in the future). Icewhiz (talk) 07:13, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well I'm not strongly wedded to this proposal, so if editors think it's worthwhile documenting in its own right, we'll need to find some more reputable sources and expand quite a bit. But I do strongly disagree with your rationale re splitting; right now the consensus is that we make articles that cover the State of Palestine, with content branches if necessary. Your argument here is inconsistent with that and would put this page at odds with most of the content on the wiki.TrickyH (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
Rename to "Energy in the Palestinian Territories"
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Guanaco 04:31, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Energy in the State of Palestine → Energy in the Palestinian Territories – This article is concerned with energy situation in the West Bank and Gaza, which are also known as Palestinian Territories and have a lot of dedicated articles. Currently State of Palestine is a legal entity claiming these territories without physical borders and with limited control of them, so it's simply impossible to be discussing energy in State of Palestine. “WarKosign” 10:33, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support, as nominator. “WarKosign” 08:12, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Note that I would prefer a split between Gaza and West Bank and there is absolutely no connection between the two in terms of energy infrastructure and in the past 10 years they are controlled by different political entities and face completely different problems (Gaza has electricity for only 2-3 hours a day now (and even that may be gone soon), whereas the situation in the West bank is quite different). Just as we have Energy in Taiwan and Energy in China, even though both sides adhere to a One-China policy, we shouldn't we lumping in Gaza and the West-Bank which are geographically not connected and whose respective leaderships lay claim to the entire Palestinian entity.Icewhiz (talk) 10:42, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as this goes against the de-facto consensus across many pages relating to the territories/state. For example the Economy of the State of Palestine is describing two separate enclaves (actually three, as the economy of East Jerusalem is separate again), Geography of the State of Palestine, Outline of the State of Palestine, etc. However there is still Health care in the Palestinian Territories, Water supply and sanitation in the Palestinian territories - maybe what we need is a discussion on Project Palestine to get consistency of application. I favour norms that follow the sources, which if you were to take the relevant UN agencies would deliver us "x in the Occupied Palestinian Territories".TrickyH (talk) 11:10, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- I believe most of the current energy related sources (post-2007), as well as previous pre-1994, as well as quite a bit in the interim 1994-2007 - treat energy in gaza and the west bank separately (regardless of whether this is a state or territories). the UN's OHCA (e.g. [2] - but in several releases on the subject) while placing this under occupied Palestinian territory, has Gaza in the title. Not crisis in the state of Palestine (or in Palestinian territories). article discussing possible development plans - almost always treat Gaza and the West Bank separately, as they are completely separate.Icewhiz (talk) 11:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Comment. Notwithstanding if this article name remains Energy in the State of Palestine or it will be renamed Energy in the Palestinian Territories, the relevant category category:Energy in the State of Palestine and the whole Energy in the State of Palestine categories tree should be treated accordingly. The worst thing will be having inconsistency in the category tree or to create two separate categories/tree for the State of Palestine and the Palestinian Territories has it happened recently. Before opening the request for renaming relevant categories, lets wait and see what is the result of this move request. Beagel (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose State of Palestine is the common and proper name here on Wikipedia and elsewhere following reliable sources. AusLondonder (talk) 22:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
- This is a common name when discussing legalities, but energy is a physical matter involving actual land which SoP lacks. “WarKosign” 08:14, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per AusLondonder. oPt is an obsolete term since about 2013.GreyShark (dibra) 06:15, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.