Talk:England–Germany football rivalry

The 1899 games

The proposal

The Times, Tuesday, Oct 10, 1899; pg. 9

FOOTBALL The FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION The Selection Committee of the Association considered last night, at a meeting held at the offices in Chancery-lane, the proposal for sending a representative English team to Germany and Austria towards the close of November for the playing of three matches - two with Germany and one with Austria. No definite decision was arrived at; but in all probability a side, wholly amateur in its constitution, will be sent to the Continent for a ten days' tour. The subject will be further dicussed in a few days and the final arrangements will be settled at a meeting of the sub-committee on the 28th inst. at Sheffield. The absence of any professionals in the side is determined really by their employers, the League clubs, who can scarecely be expected to risk anything for the championship, on their position in which their "gates" so largeley depend. Continental footballers, since the visit from University players, are quite anxious for the visit. Berlin, Prague, and Postsdam are the places that will probably be selected for the decision of the matches.

Confirmation

The Times, Tuesday, Oct 17, 1899; pg. 7

FOOTBALL The Football Association have decided to send a representative English team to play four matches with Germany during eight days following November 20. Berlin will have two of the fixtures and Prague and another city one each. The English Association Committee meet on the 28th inst. to select their side, which will no doubt be mostly amateur in its constitution, for the professional clubs in the height of the season could scarcely be asked to let off their men for nearly a fortnight. Before agreeing to the tour the Football Association made it a condition that all four matches should be rigidly representative.

The squad

This is what I've been trawling through for in particular. The TimesTuesday, Nov 14, 1899; pg. 11

FOOTBALL The German tour was definitely arranged and the English players will include C.Wreford Brown (captain), G.P. Wilson, H.R. Barrett, W.H. Waller, E.D. Brown and Stanley Briggs, with the following professionals - Back, Sunderland; Needham, Sheffield United; Crabtree, Aston Villa; Cox, Deby County; Chadwick, Brunley; Rogers, Newcastle; and Fred Foreman, Notts Forest. November 20 is the day of sailing. There will be two matches in Berlin and one each in Carlsruhe and Prague.

Okay that last one is the one I was really looking for. With those players it was obviously not some Mickey Mouse tour. This was a fully representative English FA side. There were top players of their day. Jooler 17:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

On the boat

Team corrections The Times, Tuesday, Nov 21, 1899; pg. 12

FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION RULES The English team organized by the Football Association to play a seires of matches in Germany left Holborn Viaduct Station last night for Berlin via Flushing. there was a large crowd to see them off. C. Wreford Brown was unable, at the last momemt, to join the party, and the constitution of the side was as follows - G.P. Wilson and S.S. Taylor, Corinthians; W.H. Waller, Richmond; E.D. Brown ans Stanley Briggs, Clapton; O.E. Wreford Brown, Old Cathusians; Bach, Sunderland; Crabtree, Aston Villa; Cox, Derby County; Bassett, West Bromich albion; Holt, Reading; Chadwick, Burnley; Rogers, Newcastle United; and Fred Norman Notts Forest. The tour consists of two matches at Berlin to-morrow and Thursday, one in Prague on the 25th, and the final at Karlsruhe on the 28th.

The first game

The Times, Friday, Nov 24, 1899; pg. 11

ENGLISH TEAM IN GERMANY. BERLIN, Nov. 23. The Englsh team played the first of the four matches arranged on the Berlin Athletic Sports ground against a German team to-day under Association rules. The Englishmen easily defeated their opponents by 13 goals to 2, although a strong wind blowing accross the ground hampered the scoring. The Germans led off well, several times rushing the ball dangerously near the visitors goal; but the Englishmen soon rallied, and after a brilliant piece of dribbling down the left on the part of Basset, who throughout showed splendid form, the ball was centred and headed through the posts. A clever piece of play on the part of the German captain ended in a goal for the home team after which the Britishers scored five in succession. After half-time the Germans were seen to less advantage, their goalkeeper who played extremely well, having to bear the brunt of the work, and they only added one more goal to their score. On the English side Forman, Briggs and Basset were the most conspicuous while in the German team the captain and goalkeeper showed the best form. The German eleven was fairly fast but they lacked combination and were quite outmatched. The English team will be entertained at dinner to-night. -Reuter

Second game

The Times, Saturday, Nov 25, 1899; pg. 11

THE ENGLISH FOOTBALL TEAM IN GERMANY A Reuter telegram dated Berlin, November 24 says :- The second match between the English football team and a representative German eleven began here this morning. The Englishmen at the very start forced the vall to their opponents' goal, scoring within the first ten minutes, after Rogers had dribbled the ball down the centre. an exciting mêlée followed near the German goal, and then Forman shot a second goal. Good play on the part of the home team resulted in their scoring a goal, after which the English forwards, among whom Rogers and Taylor, the Cambridge Blue, were conspicuous, forced the game, and half0time arrived with the score standing at six goals to one. In the second galf the game became faster. In th last 20 minutes the English attack was very strong, Rogers, who shot five goals, again excelling, as did also Taylor, Wilson, and Forman. At the call of time the Englishmen had scored ten goals and the Germans two. The visotors are delighted with their reception in Berlin. They leave to-night for Prague.

third game

The Times, Monday, Nov 27, 1899; pg. 13

THE ENGLISH PLAYERS IN AUSTRIA. PRAGUE NOV. 25. A football match under Association rules was played here to-day between the English team and an eleven representing Germany and Austria, resulting in a win for the former by eight goals to nothing. - Reuter.

Fourth and final game

The Times, Wednesday, Nov 29, 1899; pg. 11;

THE ENGLISH TEAM IN AUSTRIA KARLSRUHE, Nov 28. The concluding match of the tour of the English football team on the continent was played here to-day, when the Englishmen again opposed an eleven representing the combined strength of Germany and Austria. The result was a win for England by seven goals to none. The width and roughness of the ground interfered to some extent with the combination of the English players, but they nevertheless pressed nearly all through the game The German defence was good, but although playing a plucky game, they were overmatched. In the first half two goals were scored by Taylor, and one each by Chadwick and Rogers; in the second half Chadwick scored twice and Brown once. Holt played a splendid game for the Englishmen. There were 3,000 spectators. The Englishmen, who have had an extremely pleasant tour, leave for home to-morrow.

Squads for the 1901 games

This game does not appear to be officially recordied as a full international, but it is reported in The Times. It's not worth putting the following details in the article but for the record.

Transcript of The Times Saturday, Sep 14, 1901; pg. 12.

FOOTBALL - THE GERMAN TOUR IN ENGLAND The amateur and professional Association elevens, which are to play the German team of football players on the Tottenham Hotspur ground on the 21st inst., and the Manchester City ground on the 25th inst., were offically given to the Press by Mr. F.J. Wall, the secretary of the Football Association, yesterday. They are as follows:- Amateurs - W.H. Waller (Richmond Association), goal; C.B. Fry (Corinthinas) and W. Blackburn (Oxford University), basks; T.Marshall (Bishop Auckland), J.H. Thwaites (Old Cathusians), and H.Vickers (Casuals), half-backs; L. Hales (Crewe Alexandra) and S.S. Taylor (Casuals), right wing. G.o. Smith (Corinthians), centre R.E. Foster (Old Malvernians) and B.O. Corbett (Corinthians), left wing, forwards. Professionals - Geroge (Aston Villa), goal Iremonger (Notts Forest) and Compton (Blackburn Rovers), backs Fitchett (Bolton Wanderers), Smith (Manchester City), and Needham (Sheffield United), halfbacks; Whittaker (Blackburn Rovers) and Bloomer (Derby County), right wing, Calvey (Notts Forest), centre, Wooldridge (Wolverhampton Wanderers) and Wharton (Small Heath) left wings, forwards. The German team are due in London on Friday next.

There is a fairly decent and fair match report for the first game in The Times, Monday, Sep 23, 1901; pg. 10., but for the second game it barely gets a mention. The report of The Times, Thursday, Sep 26, 1901; pg. 8; says - "Yesterday at Manchester, the German football eleven met a professional side chosen by the Football Association. The German team were outclassed at every turn, and the English professionals won quite easily by ten goals to none." and that's all. Jooler 16:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Very impressive research! Well done! Angmering 18:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

softening of rivalry in recent years

does anyone else feel the rivalry has become more friendly in recent years? England and Germany are two of the only teams that aren't a bunch of diving ****s. I could help but sense of respect during the last world cup by the english towards the Germans.

Especially in light of the recent rivalry between Argentina and England.

Your th

I remember walking into a pub during the third place play off in 2006 to find everyone cheering on Germany - admittedly against Portugal who'd knocked out England, but even that wouldn't have been enough in previous years. Plus 2006 didn't have an England-Germany game so the more direct passions didn't get a chance to get vented. Timrollpickering 11:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Rivalry

Any sources for the existence of this rivalry? The fact that the two teams have played games together is not really a source... I understand that England would like to beat Germany, but I mean come on, there is not even an equivalent article on the German wikipedia.

Is this: "Unlike England's rivalries with those other two teams, however, the enmity is felt predominantly on the English side rather than shared, with the Germans regarding their team's traditional rivalry with the Netherlands as more important." supposed to deal with the issue?193.132.242.1 17:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There are several sources given in the article — see this Observer piece, for example. Angmering 19:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

As a German who has been spending a few years in England, I was surprised to find such a well balanced article on a topic so emotional. Many thanks for your fairness and congratulations. There is a great book on this subject: The best of enemies, David Downing, Bloomsbury Publishing, 2000, ISBN 0747549788. You will find a lot of anecdotes and plenty of stats (a little outdated, of course).

There is one observation I found particularly interesting: The 1966 final was the last time that England finished ahead of Germany in a World Cup. Maybe, this would be a good finisher for the 1966 paragraph. But then again, I don't want to rub it in...

Cheers, dentsdelyon 15:13, 10 September 2007

Thanks for your kind words — I'm not the only main contributor to this article of course, but I did write quite a lot of it so I thank you on behalf of everyone else who has worked on it so far. That book you mention sounds very interesting — I will try and get hold of a copy as it will be good for references. It will be interesting to see what will happen to this rivalry in the future, as I think England and Germany are a lot friendlier these days, especially after the last World Cup which Germany seemed to do such a great job of hosting. Angmering 16:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The book is definately a good read. About the rivalry, I guess it is becoming somewhat less fierce these days, but it would be a shame to do away with it altogether, and I am sure that for one reason or another, it will flare up rather sooner than later. Anyway, the German press shed a lot of warm words for the DANKE FÜR 2006 [1]choreo at Wembley on August 22nd.

dentsdelyon 10:53, 11 September 2007

P.S.: There is a little anecdote I love in this context, but I have to check the exact wording in English for I only have a German press article. After England's defeat over Germany in the 1990 World Cup, Helmut Kohl told the press that Germany had beaten England in their national sport. On hearing this, Margaret Thatcher replied: "Tell Mr Kohl that we have beaten the Germans twice in their national sport this century." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dentsdelyon (talk • contribs) 12:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

You like that comment, as a German? Interesting... I always dislike the way the rivalry is so often brought back to events that happened 60 years or more ago... Like the regrettable Daily Mirror headline back in 1996 with its "Achtung! Surrender! For You Fritz, Ze Euro 96 Championship is Over!" and so forth... Leaves a bad taste in the mouth. When there are so many purely footballing reasons for the rivalry it seems a shame to drag it back to the other thing. Although of course that's just my view, and it would be wrong of our article to ignore the cultural context. Angmering 16:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

That quote, true or not, is hilarious. The funny thing is, though, that so many nations believe they have won World Wars (and the cold war) - all on their own, of course, without any help worth mentioning. So do the "stand up if you won the war"-English, the French "surrender-monkeys", the "better late than never"-Americans, the Soviets, Poles, Canadians, Aussies and many more.... Germany must have lost dozen of World Wars to warrant all those claims. Maybe an Allied team with 50+ players should appear in future World Cups. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       19:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I certainly doubt Kohl would say this in public, German politician were well aware about tensions rising between the countries right after the matches. Lambsdorff said once on TV that from a diplomatic point of view it would be better if Germany would loose from time to time. --188.107.216.172 (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

There was an article in a recent edition of the popular comedy quiz show QI that stated quite categorically that the rivalry (if there is one) is very much one-sided. It would appear to be an entirely English phenomenon. They stated quite clearly that in Germany's case they consider their rivals to be the Netherlands. beardybloke (talk) 13:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This article is something of a joke. ALL the references, every single one of them is from the English Press. Can someone not scare up a bit of German perspective to make the article less one sided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.216.69.79 (talk) 16:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

English phenomenon...

WP:NOTAFORUM. This page is to discuss ways to improve the article. TFOWR 18:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why, oh why should Germans consider the English as rivals? Beating or loosing against England will by far not cause any emotions comparable to the recent encounters against the Netherlands or Italy. Beside them Argentina and Brazil are the ones to compete with. Sorry, but England hasn't been in any final since '66! I'm born 2 years after this and can't even count how many times I saw Germany in a European or World Cup final since '74 (no I can't remember '72). The only thing special about those encounters are the intelligent comments from the English tabloids (e.g. Return-of-the-the-black-shirts-)and the fear of German tourist on Mallorca to get beaten up by drunken Hooligans. --188.107.216.226 (talk) 17:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC) Things you read about on 4chan's /sp/ort board are not verifiable truth. Most people who talk about the England Germany rivalry there are American trolls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.42.155 (talk) 02:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC) WP:NOTAFORUM. I've closed off this thread. TFOWR 18:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, this has nothing to do with discussion forum, I just wanted to emphasize that this article lacks the German perspective. It's true that playing against the English is of special importance in Germany, but this is far from a sports rivalry. People here are very aware about the ongoing German bashing and aggression in English media and fanblocks, which IS NOT reflected in Germany. And English fans don't need to disguise when going to German pubs to avoid getting into a fight. These matches are just like a never ending episode of Fawlty Towers.

I just saw the 2010 WC match in a public viewing in Germany, the loudest and longest cheers were at the end when showing to depressed England fans in Nazi uniform. This has nothing to do with sports! After nearly half a century of dominance a "rivalry" wouldn't make sense, that would normally only produce pity. (like there was no "rivalry" when England dominated Germany in football in the preceding half of the century)

OTOH the Italians are real rivals, they have always beaten the Germans in encounters, but they often enough left the competition far earlier. Italians have 4 stars the Germans have 3. THIS is a sportive rivalry.

The German perspective is rather to wish the English team the best to solve their problems and to get back to sports and to damn the aggressions like the Dutch did years ago...

--188.107.217.42 (talk) 12:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, to save us time, and to prevent us having to read your analysis of loud cheering and Nazi uniforms, could you summarise what steps you think we should to improve the article? TFOWR 12:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

First of all. please stop censoring my discussions!

2. This article already summarizes that this rivalry is rather one-sided [[2]]:But the most curious thing about this sporting rivalry is that it's almost entirely one-sided. For Germany, this Sunday's contest will be just another match. (It has its own bitter rivalry with the Dutch, who German fans charmingly call "the cheese-heads"). German coach Joachim Loew has dismissed any ideas that Sunday's match will be influenced by the events of 65 years ago. "It is high time to forget about that," he told reporters Friday. "We live in 2010 and in a unified Europe." Ladzik, meanwhile, says that she wants Germany to win, "but only because the team is still young and they really played nice football in the first game."

3. One could also mention that Erikson tried to produce TV-Spots with England stars to reduce the political dimension: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_German_Bombers#Kontroverse_anl.C3.A4sslich_der_Fu.C3.9Fball-WM_2006

I'm not an English speaker and wont edit the article, but please leave my suggestions untouched!!!--188.107.217.42 (talk) 13:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

More WP:NOTAFORUM posts.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
First of all. please stop censoring my discussions! I have collapsed one discussion. It is not "censored": if you click on the link marked "show" your off-topic discussion will be shown. Similarly, if you then click on the link makred "hide" your off-topic discussion will then be hidden again. Nevertheless, I have done this precisely once. Thank you for now discussing ways to improve the article. The best way to ensure that your comments to talk pages are not "censored" is simply to ensure that they remain on-topic: i.e. that they focus on improving the article, and not your personal analysis, e.g. I just saw the 2010 WC match in a public viewing in Germany, the loudest and longest cheers were at the end when showing to depressed England fans in Nazi uniform. This has nothing to do with sports! TFOWR 13:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC) My personal analysis came after you started censoring. Anyway I will not start a flame with you, please try to stay objective even after loosing a match (again)! --188.107.217.42 (talk) 13:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC) Again with the off topic nonsense. Why, oh why should Germans consider the English as rivals? Beating or loosing against England will by far not cause any emotions comparable to the recent encounters against the Netherlands or Italy....Beside them Argentina and Brazil are the ones to compete with. this is your off-topic comment from your first post, which prompted me to collapse your post. Again, your post is not censored, and is readily available to anyone interested. I have not "loosed a match (again)". I was surprised we did so well in our group, and the loss to Paraguay was entirely expected. Beating Italy amazed me. All of which remains as off-topic as your original post. I suggest if you want to discuss football with English people you find some other venue to do it at. TFOWR 13:35, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Lock the topic?

The article has been constantly changed/vandalised since June 21, despite nothing new or verifiable being used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.42.155 (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This was requested at WP:RFPP and I declined it - sorry! I did collapse one off-topic thread, but I'm not seeing enough activity to warrant protecting a talkpage. Indeed, in general talkpages are very rarely protected. TFOWR 13:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Dates

I've caught two mistakes in the list of fixtures, and there are probably more. Someone needs to go through it checking it in detail. Drutt (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense introduction

Most German football fans, however, take little interest in their rivalry with England, and instead consider the Netherlands to be their traditional footballing rivals. is utter rubbish.

The facts: Before the Euro 1988 semifinal in Hamburg nobody in Germany considered Germany/Netherlands a special rivalry. During the 1974 World Cup Germans were fascinated by the dutch squad. The Germany-Netherlands encounter during Euro 1980 in Italy was regarded as any other match. In Hamburg 1988 for me (in a german shirt) it was no problem to stand among dutch fans and to cheer for Germany. However some unsportsmanlike actions by dutch players in Hamburg (Koeman) and two years later during the Italy WC (Rijkard) brought ill feelings into the affair. Since then a Germany/Netherlands rivalry has been hyped by the tabloid press and by private TV. But let´s not forget: This is only a rivalry of thugs, who meet at the german/dutch border near Aachen to beat each other and of teenage drunks with no football interest who enjoy singing "ohne Holland fahrn wir zur WM" when the dutch fail to qualify for a tournament.

On the other hand we have a whole batch of classic games between Germany and England from a period of over 100 years. Wembley 66 and 72, Mexico 1970 to name but a few. I know nobody with a real interest in football in Germany who doesn´t consider the England/Germany rivalry the greatest rivalry in german international football. And thats why for example tickets for the two friendly matches at Wembley 2007 and Berlin 2008 sold out in a few minutes.--80.154.98.131 (talk) 09:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide any reliable sources to back up your claims? A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 11:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I reverted "solely" to "mainly" in the article and added a paragraph to the effect that, yes, Germany vs. England certainly does have an improtant status, even for Germans. However, it is also true that whatever may have been the case before 1988 and especially before 1974, on the German's side the English-German rivalry is nothing compared to the German-Dutch one, even in jest.

As for sitting in the Dutch bloc cheering for the Germans, I should hope that is possible (and also vice versa). It's still a sporting rivalry, part of which is jest and part of which is a desire to win all matches against the other party; it's not enmity. Even if we don't particularly like the pathos of Avery Bundage, Sepp Blatter and their kind, but it is true that international sports have to do with international understanding, the occasional Soccer War notwithstanding. If such a rivalry would mean one couldn't cheer for one's own team in a civil manner depending on surrounded by whom one is, as a Borussia Dortmund fan can when visiting a match against Bayern München at the latter's stadium, then that would be problematic indeed.--2001:A61:20FD:BB01:2C79:1398:754C:E873 (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Amateur matches

Why aren't the amateur matches of 1908, 1909, 1911 and 1913 mentioned? I can see why, but I think they should be mentioned in the text or that the statistics should be explained so that the reader can understand what the represent.

http://www.11v11.com/teams/germany/tab/opposingTeams/opposition/England

EriFr (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

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Section "Germany"

Following their 5–1 loss in 2001, many German fans were not particularly concerned, instead revelling in the Netherlands' defeat by the Republic of Ireland the same day. Some sang directly after the loss to England: "We're going to the World Cup without Holland!"

Despite the (expired) source I would very much doubt that statement since due to this loss Germany was not directly qualified for the worldcup 2002 thus having to face Ukraine in the UEFA qualification playoffs. In conclusion it would be most unlikely to celebrate the elimination of another rival while being shocked from a historic defeat and unsure of one's own participation. However it is fair to suppose this took actually place at their high-score victory against Ukraine during the final game of the playoffs (4-1). --Brandherd (talk) 13:01, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

intro quote

should have a year by the name of the quotee 2601:602:9200:1310:A199:CEC:24B5:90F5 (talk) 03:58, 9 July 2021 (UTC)