Talk:English people

Islam and Judaism under religion category

It makes it seem as if Islam and Judaism are major religions comparable in size and influence to Christianity among religions that native Englishmen follow, Islam and Judaism are practised by Migrants and their descendants in England, a negligible amount of Ethnic English people follow these religions

The above sections on English diaspora are obviously talking about the English people, the ethnic group, where as the religion section includes migrants and their religions too

I think it should be clarified Auspol4 (talk) 11:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

How many generations before someone counts as English for you? Ethnicity is not genetic. Everybody in England is a "(Migrant or) their descendant". Not to preclude migrants but there are English people of these religions that have been there for considerable generations. As I mentioned in my edit summary, this has been discussed at length in earlier discussions. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:10, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't someone like Moeen Ali be considered a member of an Ethnic Minority? The Igbo people of Nigeria are an Ethnic group; if I moved to say Abia State/my descendants lived there for generations, would I/they be considered members of the Igbo people? I know this could end up in a bit of a forum-esque debate, but it's not as clear-cut and reliable sources don't seem to provide a consistent definition. Alssa1 (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

from the very article we are supposed to be discussing:

"The English people are an ethnic group and nation native to England, who speak the English language, a West Germanic language, and share a common history and culture.[9]", "The English largely descend from two main historical population groups: the West Germanic tribes, including the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians who settled in Southern Britain following the withdrawal of the Romans, and the partially Romanised Celtic Britons who already lived there.[11][12][13][14] Collectively known as the Anglo-Saxons, they founded what was to become the Kingdom of England by the early 10th century, in response to the invasion and extensive settlement of Danes that began in the late 9th century.[15][16] This was followed by the Norman Conquestand limited settlement of Normans in England in the later 11th century.[17][18][19][11][20] Some definitions of English people include, while others exclude, people descended from later migration into England.[21]"

"Black and Asian populations have only grown throughout the UK generally, as immigration from the British Empire and the subsequent Commonwealth of Nations was encouraged due to labour shortages during post World War II rebuilding.[87] However, these groups are often still considered to be ethnic minorities and research has shown that black and Asian people in the UK are more likely to identify as British rather than with one of the state's four constituent nations, including England.[88]"

and from the article on ethnicity: "An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment....Ethnic membership tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language, dialect, religion, mythology, folklore, ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, or physical appearance. Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with many groups having mixed genetic ancestry."

seems to be that it's pretty clear-cut. regardless of how many times it has been discussed before, this page is about English ethnicity and nationhood, not nationality law and citizenship and residency. and ethnicity is clearly at least partly genetic. English people are people of the ethnicity and nation native to England, as stated by the first sentence of this very article. In Northern America, no one is native except for "Native Americans" and "Indigenous peoples of Canada", even though white peoples have been present for 500 years. JM2023 (talk) 14:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I used to teach in London, alongside a lady called Mrs Solden. I'd worked with her every day for months before I learned that she was Jewish. The idea that her faith would have made her in some way less English is, frankly, offensive - she was very much a typical English schoolteacher. Before that, while working in Edinburgh, I worked with a chap called Adil, whose family had come to England from Pakistan. He'd grown up in Liverpool. We used to give him stick, not for being Asian, or a muslim, but for being English. I was born and grew up in Scotland, but both of my parents were English. I think of myself as Scottish, and so do the English people I live amongst in York - they give me a bit of stick for it, because I'm the outsider now. Ethnicity and nationality are complicated things, and this article is not exclusively about 'ethnically pure' English people, however that term might be defined on an island that has had a constant stream of immigration and integration of peoples for thousands of years. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Yep. Hmm, is Moeen Ali not "English", but Boris Johnson is? How does that work? DeCausa (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

It works like the way the very article we are discussing states in its first sentence: "The English people are an ethnic group and nation native to England". In Northern America, Australia and New Zealand, South Africa, etc., white people are never considered native to those countries, even though in some cases white peoples have a presence dating back 500 years. Whether or not Moeen Ali or Boris Johnson are ethnically English, I don't know, because I don't know their ethnic backgrounds; but ethnicity and nationhood exist whether we want them to or not, and this is not the place to discuss why modern migrants should be considered English alongside natives: Wikipedia is not a forum. JM2023 (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, nor how much you find the dictionary definition of a word offensive or repugnant.

A key part of the definition of ethnicity is shared ancestry. It is what it is. 148.252.128.6 (talk) 05:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I've just had a look for definitions, including at Ethnicity, and most seem to stress that it's a perceived or subjective belief in some shared attributes such as ancestry, not an absolute objective sharing of those attributes. Of course, it might be easier for most English people to perceive that they share attributes with a white person who has foreign ancestry than it is for them to do the same with someone of a different skin colour, but it doesn't seem as simple as just genetic ancestry. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Surely that is muddying the waters somewhat? Alssa1 (talk) 22:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I was just correcting what looked to be a misunderstanding of how ethnicity is defined, Alssa1. I admit I haven't read the whole thread. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"Englishman" as demonym

I believe "Englishman" should be added as a demonym for England.

It's my understanding that the demonym in the article, "English", is used only as an uncountable noun, and refers to English people in general, as in, "The English and Their History", and is incorrect as a countable noun: *"I'm an English". In the countable sense, I only see "Englishman", as in "I'm an Englishman in New York". I searched the archive and found no mention of "Englishman" as a topic of discussion (only used as a demonym), and any reputable dictionary defines "Englishman" as a demonym. I'm often wrong about these ideas on Wikipedia, and I don't trust myself to twiddle with templates, so I haven't made the edit myself, but I hope someone either does so, or explains why it shouldn't be on the main page. Atkinson (talk) 06:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

That's true and it's odd that it's not mentioned once. So I've added both Englishman and Englishwoman and referenced them to the Cambridge Dictionary online.Bermicourt (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Irish immigration included

Irish immigration should be included in English ethnogenesis. 10% of Britain has Irish ancestry, a majority of that in England. 2603:8000:CF01:6AAD:255A:5E7C:CBA9:478C (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

From the Immigration and Assimilation section: Due to sustained and sometimes mass emigration of the Irish, current estimates indicate that around 6 million people in the UK have at least one grandparent born in the Republic of Ireland.[87] DeCausa (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. It is not the inclusion that is in contention, it is the undue highlighting in the lead. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the significant presence, they make up more of the English gene pool than the Normans do 2603:8000:CF01:6AAD:5D3B:B816:BC9:4299 (talk) 08:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Official Language

In this edit [1] Mr. Information1409 changed the text to say that English became an official language alongside French and Latin. The source is dead and archive.org is down so I cannot check the source, but this appears unlikely to me. English was never, to my knowledge, made an official language. Is that what the source says? If not, could we find a source that discusses this and then follow the source? Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Done some - "used in official documents" is better than "official language", a rather modern concept. There is also the question of what languages could be used in (legal) courts, which this rather weakly sourced section doesn't get into. Johnbod (talk) 03:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused by this edit, Mr. Information1409. How do you know what the dead source says? Or did you manage to access it? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

This (pp.72-73) has a useful summary of the major steps in English being adopted in "official" use. Maybe it could support a statement to the effect that English came "increasingly into official use", or even "superseded Anglo-Norman in official use" during the 14th century with 2 or 3 of the major examples. DeCausa (talk) 11:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

By the way, the deadlink is a page on https://www.heritage-history.com/ which says "Heritage History was started by a homeschooling family with some experience in computers, and a large home library of classical children's histories." So...not RS, deadlink or no deadlink. DeCausa (talk) 11:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)