Talk:Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt (New York City)

Additional sources to use

• Contemporary Black American Cinema: Race, Gender and Sexuality at the Movies, p. 43
• Culture/power/history: A Reader in Contemporary Social Theory, pg. 50
• Film and the American Moral Vision of Nature: Theodore Roosevelt to Walt Disney
• IMAGINING TR: COMMEMORATIONS AND REPRESENTATIONS OF THEODORE ROOSEVELT IN TWENTIETH-CENTURY AMERICA, starting pg. 201

--Pharos (talk) 08:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

Some disambiguation may be needed here. There are other equestrian statues of Roosevelt, such as Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:24, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

and, after much debate, should Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider be changed to Statue of Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider? Definitely "YES" on the disambiguation. Carptrash (talk) 17:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Carptrash, But wouldn't that be just adding "statue of" to the front of the work's title? Seems the Portland statue is known as Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider, Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider, and Roughrider, so perhaps Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt (Portland, Oregon) is more appropriate. We should probably have a separate discussion on that article's talk page, and more research may be needed to determine how the work is referred to most frequently in sourcing. @Ham II: Thoughts? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:01, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I have fairly recently been converted to the idea of putting 'Statue" or sometimes "Bust" at the start of the name of an article about a statue. But, unlike as is often the case with the newly converted I don't feel that this convention needs to be used all the time, particularly if there is a common, known name for the work. So I'll back off here and agree that Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider is a fine name for that article. Unless of course there is a painting that could have the same name and I know that there is a mural in Las Vegas, New Mexico that could also be tagged with that name, though I probably will not write an article about it. Carptrash (talk) 16:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Re the New York statue – I'd support a move to Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt (New York City) as there's clearly at least one other equestrian statue of Roosevelt. Although, given that it's strictly speaking a sculptural group with three human figures and one horse, is another title available?

Re the Portland statue – I agree with Carptrash's latest post. Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider is fine for the time being; perhaps another time we can look into whether it this is indeed the WP:COMMONNAME. I've created Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt (Portland, Oregon) as a redirect. Ham II (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Ham II, Thank you! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:40, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

• Nb, according to the Smithsonian Inventory database thingy (see EL there), the Portland one is:
• "Title: Theodore Roosevelt, (sculpture).
• Other Titles: *Rough Rider, (sculpture).
• Roughrider, (sculpture)."

Here, I'll add Theodore Roosevelt, Rough Rider to see also - perhaps enough. Johnbod (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Johnbod, I don't feel too strongly about removing the See also link, but technically not necessary because link appears in Roosevelt navigation template. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

A link in a template doesn't mean no SA is needed. Nobody can be expected to look at all the stuff in those. Johnbod (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Johnbod, Eh, sorry but try again. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#"See_also"_section specifically says, " As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:35, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

JohnBod is correct, the MOS language is outdated, and has been discussed and questioned, since templates don't appear on mobile and thus over 50% of people won't be able to see the link if it's not in See also. And the template descriptor has been changed to just include the city and not the name of the statue, another reason to keep it on the See also list. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Randy Kryn, Ok well we have different interpretations, but like I said, I don't feel strongly. Thanks, all! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Since you're using the outdated language as a point of discussion I've boldly removed it due to the discussion on the MOS talk page. If mobile viewers don't see something then a See also link is appropriate. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Good move. Once upon a time it might have made sense, but now navboxes are often enormous.... Johnbod (talk) 03:56, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Teddy Roosevelt as a Rough Rider is a very slippery slope since there are multiple busts by Fraser with that name and also, I think, an equestrian somewhere. Also the Smithsonian Thingy (SIRIS) is not 100% reliable, do you (anyone/everyone) know how it was put together? Carptrash (talk) 04:22, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Carptrash, I don't know details, but I the database is affiliated with Smithsonian's "Save Outdoor Sculpture!" program. You might look into how this program is run, if curious. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I have a pretty good idea @Another Believer:, how is conducted in 1992, or whatever because I was a part of it. If you look at the logo image on the Save Outdoor Sculpture! page you will note that I posted it from my handbook. The initial survey was conducted by volunteers, of which I was one, and there were, for that reason, lots of errors made. it was sometimes assumed that all metal statues were bronze, whereas while most were, some were copper, others zinc. Likewise it was assumed by some that all stone statues were marble, again not always a given. Carptrash (talk) 21:25, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 31 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:27, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

---

Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt → Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt (New York City) – There are other equestrian statues of Theodore Roosevelt, so Equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt should probably be converted into a disambiguation page. See above related discussion. --Another Believer _(Talk) 16:43, 31 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Wug·a·po·des​ 00:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support per my comment in the section above. Ham II (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

*Support per nomination. Taking the immediately preceding discussion into account, this nomination may be considered an uncontroversial technical request. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Taking into account that reliable sources, provided below by Station1, refer to this work's title as "Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt", as does the Smithsonian Institute, I am striking my "Support" vote and explanatory sentence since the nomination could not be considered as a technical request. Because of the statue's current notoriety, it can be even said to be the equestrian statue of Theodore Roosevelt, among all other such equestrian statues. I would therefore support Station1's vote to return the main title header to Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt since that appears to be its WP:COMMONNAME, even if not its "official" name. Since the controversy surrounding the statue is not likely to subside, I would also support this statue's positioning as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC among all equestrian statues of Theodore Roosevelt, but would not strongly oppose the addition of the qualifier "(New York City)". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• Move back to Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt, to revert the undiscussed move of a couple weeks ago. The actual title of this work is Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt.[1][2][3][4] It is not a descriptive phrase. Since no other article will need that precise title, just add a {{distinguish}} hatnote pointing to any other statue(s). Station1 (talk) 01:14, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose lower-case but fine with adding (New York City) and move back to upper-casing per Station1, this is the real name of the statue once the undiscussed and incorrect lower-case move is rolled back (I'd move it now but not sure how this works if an RM is popped up). Randy Kryn (talk) 17:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

  I thought about moving it back myself, but once a discussion is started, it's best to let it play out; otherwise it can get too confusing. Most admins will roll back to the former title unless there's consensus for a new title. As to the NYC qualifier, if the actual, capitalized name of the sculpture is unique (it appears to be), it would be incorrect to add a qualifier implying there's another one, per WP:PRECISE. The lower cased title could still be a dab page, although with only two articles, the hatnote is all you really need per WP:TWODABS. - Station1 (talk) 00:39, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks. I changed my support of the disamb. because of you, Roman Skinner, and taking into account your comment about the hatnote to the Rough Rider statue. That and its use in "See also" covers the important bases. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• For the record, Freundlich gives the title of the work as New York State Memorial, Theodore Roosevelt, also as the Theodore Roosecelt Memorial. Carptrash (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

  Further, Krakel refers to it simply as Theodore Roosevelt while the Smithsonian Institute calls it the “Equestrian Statue of Theodore Roosevelt.” Forget what other reputable sources call it, we need to decide what we call it. Carptrash (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

  Is Freundlich referring to the statue specifically or to the Theodore Roosevelt Memorial as a whole, which is the official New York State memorial to TR? (I don't have access to the book.) Station1 (talk) 00:39, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

  You are right, the "New York State Memorial" part refers to the whole facade, including Fraser's Lewis & Clark & Others. The TR group is called "Theodore Roosevelt" (Freundlich's quotation marks.) Carptrash (talk) 15:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support per the above 2 sections - there is enough confusion and potential ambiguity to justify the extra level of disam. Johnbod (talk) 21:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support The ambiguity in sources is overwhelming, as with many public statues there is no consistency at all, and just capitalizing it does not truly give the "real name" or disambiguate effectively.--Pharos (talk) 15:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.