Talk:Ore Mountains

Uncategorised

in my opinion you should whrite more about the economy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.129.76.100 (talk) 12:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Move to Erzgebirge

Ore Mountains (Central Europe) is a rather clumsy title for a mountains range knows as Erzgebirge to scientists publishing in English. Google Scholar has over 3000 hits for Erzgebirge +the, with "the" to enforce English use, and limited to post-Cold War era, 1990 and later. For the same period, only 800 hits for "Ore mountains" and 300 for "Krušné hory". Also, as the article covering the Giant Mountains is still located at Karkonosze, a move to Erzgebirge is needed for consistency, too. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

See also Talk:Ore Mountains.-- Matthead  Discuß   16:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Begrifflichkeit

Wäre es nicht gut, dem Wort Erzgebirge bzw. Krušné hory die zugehörige Lautschrift anzuhängen? Ich meine das wäre eine Erleichterung für die Englichsprechenden. --Sachsenranger (talk) 08:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

   Apologies to our German-speaking colleague S...r...r (who likely gets by at making themself clear in one of, say, French or Czech, and recognizes what's being said to them in both of them and maybe another one or two) that so many years have passed before the first Yank would show them a corresponding courtesy! ... I'm embarassed that so many arrogant English-speakers have apparently demonstrated once more a disrespect for the cultures that laid two millennia of groundwork for modern civilization. In this case, the neglected talk contrib says something reasonably close to

Wouldn't it be good, for the [German] word "Erzgebirge", and likewise the [presumably Czech, Bohemian, and/or Moravian phrase] "Kru[s with haczek?]n[e with right-leaning stroke] hory" to be [accompanied? Annotated?] ? I have the opinion that [doing so] would be [a source of] enlightenment

And that's all I have to offer, for what it's worth.--Jerzy•t 10:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: will be moved when the redirect is deleted. Kotniski (talk) 10:03, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

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Erzgebirge → Ore Mountains — Whilst the German name for these mountains is not uncommon in English sources, Ore Mountains is the standard English name; it is more intelligible, has no real contenders and avoids preferring the German over the Czech native names.--Bermicourt (talk) 18:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support (Nom vote). Having done some research into this I believe "Ore Mountains" is a more apt title for the following reasons:
  • It is the English name and complies with WP:USEENGLISH.
  • The mountains lie both in Germany and the Czech Republic, Erzgebirge and Krušné hory being the native names. Ore Mountains avoids favouring one over the other.
  • It is somewhat illogical to have numerous articles on Czech places in the Ore Mountains categorised under a German name for the mountains.
  • Many reliable sources use Ore Mountains. These include geographical books (e.g. Germany by Elkins, 1972) and tourist guides (e.g. Essential Czech Republic by the AA, 2002). The majority use both (e.g. Czech Republic by lonely planet, Germany by Michelin). Many on-line sources use Ore Mountains (e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica 2008, Czech Mountains, Atlas of Europe, Expedia, Everything About Germany, Museum of Air Battle Over the Ore Mountains).
  • It is unambiguous. There are no real contenders for the name "Ore Mountains" - the current page is a redirect.
  • It is clear: no-one could be in any doubt what "mountains" are. Erzgebirge is unintelligible to most English readers.
  • It is common practice to translate the German compound noun "FOOgebirge" as "FOO mountains". In this case "FOO" is frequently translated as "Ore", which is what it means.
  • The logic for the previous transfer no longer applies as the proposal is to move it to Ore Mountains not Ore Mountains (Central Europe).
  • I accept that google searches may produce more hits for "Erzgebirge" but in this case feel that this should not be the decisive factor and that the English name is more appropriate for the reasons above. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I do have one question: does the Czech name "Krušné hory" also translate to Ore Mountains? RedWolf (talk) 02:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes! According to Google translate... --Bermicourt (talk) 07:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support per all the above and especially the Czech/German border overlap. Vsmith (talk) 14:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support per above; there was little justification (or agreement) about moving it here in the first place. Moonraker12 (talk) 16:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Text cleanup

I have deleted the following text inserted by an unknown author because it's unclear and needs wikifying. The reference is in Czech. If someone could verify the source and information and reword this in good English, we can replace it. --Bermicourt (talk) 06:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

First settlement

According last knowledges first prospectors mining tin approximately in the 12th century BC. They coming from mediterranean probably. See Artefacts from Ore mountains

Speaking first of geomorphology, and second, topography is incongruous, the classical order is inverse: 1/ description 2/ explanation ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.194.120.173 (talk) 06:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ore Mountains/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Rated as Stub due to no references. RedWolf 04:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Okay, so we now have some sources but no inline citations. Needs some headings as well. I'm guessing that this article was probably translated from the German Wikipedia given the apparent German sources. Inline citations and some headings before considering for C class. Wouldn't hurt if we could have some English language sources as well. RedWolf (talk) 06:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 11:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 01:57, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Title misleading

No adult ever says "the Ore Mountains" in English - it's just one of those things that don't get translated, sorry. This article is therefore completely unnecessary, and will only confuse people if it's left to stand. Maelli (talk) 00:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your point of view. I've never heard the argument that an article was unnecessary because we just don't like the title - interesting. As far as the title is concerned, we go from the sources and Ore Mountains is the most common English name. Of course the native name is included in the lede and as a redirect so it's covered. Bermicourt (talk) 09:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I wanted to make a similar point to Maelli - I would very much like to know which sources are using this (to me) very strange name. As a native speaker (of English), I have never in my life heard of anyone translating 'Erzgebirge' directly - it would be something like translating 'the Himalaya' to 'the Abode of Snow Mountains'. Is 'Ore Mountains' really used by more reputable English-language sources than 'Erzgebirge' (or even than 'Erz Mountains' or 'Erz Hills'), and if not, what rationale do we have for departing from the usual policy of using the most common name? PhainetaiMoi (talk) 03:50, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Border

"…natural border between Saxony and Bohemia for around 800 years, from the 12th to the 20th centuries. Today, the border between Germany and the Czech Republic runs just north of the main crest of the mountain range" I don't think there was any change of border. 109.81.215.30 (talk) 11:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

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Ore Mountains → Erzgebirge – Several editors, above and elsewhere, have expressed an opinion that "Ore Mountains" is simply not commonly used in English, and that the range is much better known by its German name Erzgebirge. Indeed, ngram from English corpus seems to favor Erzgebirge to a ~5:1 ratio for modern works and even more for the older (despite some likely pollution from German-language sources misidentified as English). "Ore Mountains" are not completely unattested (Britannica has it), but seem to lag far behind. No such user (talk) 10:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support. Absolutely. There is no commonly-used English-language translation of this range. It is not our business to translate all foreign-language names to English no matter what, but only if there is a commonly-used translation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support. I raised this issue a little earlier today, at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Titles which are foreign-language work of art tiles or organization names. I have known of the Erzgebirge for 50 years; I have never met the term 'Ore Mountains' (which is a literal translation) outside Wikipedia. It worries me if an unsourced translation made by a Wikipedia editor in 2003 has entered the language. That goes against everything Wikipedia is about. Narky Blert (talk) 10:59, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Weak support. Bermicourt made some good points against in 2011, some of which still apply, but Erzgebirge seems to be the most common English term. For completeness, ngram results for Krusne hory are significant but still the lowest of the three, and Krušné hory doesn't even appear. We should probably keep Ore Mountains as a primary redirect to Erzgebirge rather than moving Ore Mountains (disambiguation) to the base name: pageviews. We might also consider the best titles for Ore Mountain passes, Ore Mountain Club, Ore Mountain Mining Region, Ore Mountain Basin, Ore Mountain cuisine, Ore Mountain folk art and Ore Mountains/Vogtland Nature Park. None of those appear on ngrams in either language, though the Ore Mountain(s) name for the mining region gets a mention here and for the basin on page 37 here. Certes (talk) 11:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose move to an unintelligible name that favours the German name over the Czech name. I researched this before and concluded that "Ore Mountains" is the best title for the following reasons:
  • It is not only the most common English name used for this range, it is the only English-language name used for them and complies with WP:USEENGLISH.
  • The mountains lie both in Germany and the Czech Republic, Erzgebirge and Krušné hory being the native names. Ore Mountains avoids favouring one over the other.
  • It is somewhat illogical to have numerous articles on Czech places in the Ore Mountains categorised under a German name for the mountains.
  • Many reliable sources use Ore Mountains. These include geographical books (e.g. Germany by Elkins, 1972) and tourist guides (e.g. Essential Czech Republic by the AA, 2002). The majority use both (e.g. Czech Republic by lonely planet, Germany by Michelin). Many on-line sources use Ore Mountains (e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica 2008, Czech Mountains, Atlas of Europe, Expedia, Everything About Germany, Museum of Air Battle Over the Ore Mountains).
  • It is unambiguous. There are no real contenders for the name "Ore Mountains".
  • It is clear: no-one could be in any doubt what "mountains" are. Erzgebirge is unintelligible to most English readers.
  • It is common practice to translate the German compound noun "FOOgebirge" as "FOO mountains". In this case "FOO" is frequently translated as "Ore", which is what it means in both German and Czech.
  • Searches may produce more hits for "Erzgebirge" but in this case feel it should not be the decisive factor and that the English name is more appropriate for the reasons above. Bermicourt (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Count me neutral as the nominator, for the time being. I opened the RM more or less procedurally, to try to find if a formal consensus around the issue exists, and Bermicourt's arguments have swayed me to an extent.
  Also, there's a significant gotcha that the GBook search for Erzgebirge in "English" books has a large number of false positives, i.e. books completely in German, books referring to the FC Erzgebirge Aue etc, so caution should be used in interpreting the results. No such user (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Current "language neutral" name is better. Regarding current usage, results from 2015+ Google Scholar are Ore Mountains 18,800 vs Erzgebirge 3,870, so it seems that "Ore Mountains" is current common name.Jklamo (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

  @Jklamo: You really ought to put the first term in quotes, and then manually count the pages, to achieve a meaningful comparison. I have to run now so I cannot do it myself, but it certainly isn't 18800:3870. No such user (talk) 14:00, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

The search for "Ore Mountains" (in quotes) gives 1220. --T*U (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support for the reasons given by Necrothesp and especially Narky Blert. "Ore Mountains" may happen to be two English words, but the phrase does not seem (at all) to be the most commonly used name when speaking English, and the arguments to overlook that fact don't look strong enough to justify using anything but Erzgebirge. References to them in articles on places in the Czech Republic should certainly mention the Czech name as well. Agree that Ore Mountains should be a primary redirect to Erzgebirge, and suggest pages like Ore Mountain cuisine, most of which seem to have been created by a single editor, be renamed. PhainetaiMoi (talk) 01:55, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. It is very easy to be misled by simple Google or even ngram statistics. As someone has pointed out "Erzgebirge" is part of the name of a football club. It may also be used as used as an adjective without modification - Erzgebirge region - whereas Ore Mountains would be modified by dropping the "s" - Ore Mountain region. When I did the research previously it turned out that there wasn't an overwhelming difference in English sources between the two forms while, on every other count, "Ore Mountains" is the better option. And I am a German speaker, so am favourably disposed to the German language.Bermicourt (talk) 12:43, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Deutsch ist mir die zweite Sprache. Narky Blert (talk) 19:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Correction: You really ought to put the first term in quotes You have to also set English language for search results. Then ""Ore mountains" indeed 1220, but Erzgebirge drops down to 2040, i.e., usage advantage is not that big. Also I noticed that "Ore mountains" authors appear to be 95% Czechs/Slovaks, who translate the name literally. While Erzgebirge is used by both German and Czech authors, but in this case Czechs appear to give both Czech and German names. Therefor I have to conclude that Google Scholar results are inconclusive, but reasonably favor Erzgebirge. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: UNESCO World Heritage site uses native combined name :Erzgebirge/Krušnohoří Mining Region here Krušnohoří is adjective from "Krušné Hory". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:14, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Krušnohoří is not adjective. Krušnohorský would be.--Darwinek (talk) 19:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Krušnohoří is a reference to the area related to "Krušné Hory", kinda "Krushnogoria". I don't know the name of this grammatical construct. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• Support move to native name per my findings above. I would prefer double naming: Erzgebirge/Krušné Hory, but it seems there is no such case in en-WP. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:18, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bermicourt. His short analysis has it all. Besides, he is the most merited user here, working on related articles for a long time.--Darwinek (talk) 19:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Argument from authority is a logical fallacy. Narky Blert (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

No it is not, in this context. Otherwise all court cases which use experts as an evidence would fall apart. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:52, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: In response to Bermicourt's earlier comment about the name "Ore Mountains" ("It is not only the most common English name used for this range, it is the only English-language name used for them"), I think the claim that it is the only English name seems incorrect. "Erz Mountains" has been used by e.g. the BBC and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary. "Erzgebirge" is an entry in the Collins English Dictionary. GeoWriter (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bermicourt, "Ore Mountains" is a neutral term that is used widely enough. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead section

Jeez, Bermicourt, do we have to discuss every single edit on this page? The article should start with subject definition, and Ore Mountains in Central Europe have formed a natural border between Lands of the Bohemian Crown and Electorate of Saxony for around 800 years, from the 12th to the 20th centuries is hardly one (btw, there's also the wrong tense there). Why do we define the mountains that have been here for millions of years in terms of former polities? The reader has no idea why those polities are relevant to be in so prominent place, and the mystery is not any clearer even after reading the #History section. Why not simply define them in terms of modern countries, i.e. Czech Republic and Germany known to everyone? I also removed entirely irrelevant links, such as those to Central Europe, craft and industry. This is not "useful information and better links". No such user (talk) 14:38, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Bermicourt, I started discussion a month ago, which you ignored twice despite being pinged and having it on your watchlist. My patience is wearing thin. No such user (talk) 15:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Of course we don't have to discuss every edit, just those which are reverted. The process is in WP:BRD.

I think we should be able to agree a new form of wording here. For a start I don't have a problem with removing those 3 links above. And you're right about the tense; it looks like the original sentence was expanded without the verb being altered. I'd also like to declutter the opening sentence by moving all the foreign names and pronunciations to the end of the lede or a separate "Name" section. And it may be worth adding some of the information in the lede of the German Wiki article, although I'm not 100% convinced by that. So the result could look something like this (I haven't put in the links or references):

The Ore Mountains lie along the Czech–German border, separating the historical regions of Bohemia in Czech Republic and Saxony in Germany. The highest peaks are the Klínovec in the Czech Republic (German: Keilberg), which rises to 1,244 metres (4,081 ft) above sea level and the Fichtelberg in Germany which is 1,215 metres (3,986 ft) high.

The area played an important role in contributing Bronze Age ore and, since the first wave of settlement in the Middle Ages, the nature of the Ore Mountains has been intensively shaped by human intervention and has created a diverse cultural landscape. In particular, mining with its tips, dams, ditches and sinkholes directly shaped the landscape and the habitats of plants and animals in many places. The region was also the setting of the earliest stages of the early modern transformation of mining and metallurgy from a craft to a large-scale industry, a process that preceded and enabled the later Industrial Revolution.

The higher altitudes from around 500 m above sea level on the German side belong to the Ore Mountain/Vogtland Nature Park - the largest of its kind in Germany with a length of 120 km. The eastern Ore Mountains are protected landscape. Other smaller areas on the German and Czech side are protected as nature reserves and natural monuments. On the ridges there are also several larger raised bogs that are only fed by rainwater. The mountains are a popular for hiking and there are winter sports areas at higher elevations. In 2019, the region became a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Name

The mountains are sometimes referred to as the Ore Mountain Range in English or by their German name of Erzgebirge [ˈeːɐ̯tsɡəˌbɪʁɡə]. In Czech they are known as the Krušné hory [ˈkruʃnɛː ˈhorɪ] or historically Rudohoří; and in Upper Sorbian as the Rudne horiny.

Bermicourt (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks. The lead was too short and did not properly summarize the scope; and foreign names indeed cluttered the lead sentence. Will you please copy that to the article yourself, and we can edit the wikilikns later? No such user (talk) 10:27, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Roger. I'll do that and we can clean it up as needed. Bermicourt (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

That's done. I'm not sure of the syntax for the pronunciation of names; we seem to have inherited a mixture. Bermicourt (talk) 19:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)