Talk:Mongols in China

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Do not move. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Mongolian Chinese → Chinese Mongolian … Rationale: some people mix up wether it are Mongolian Chinese or Chinese Mongolian. This article discusses Chinese Mongolian … Please share your opinion at Talk:Mongolian Chinese. — Deadmaster 11:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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Discussion

An Mongolian Chinese is someone from Mongolian origin or descent that owns the Chinese nationality. A Chinese Mongolian is someone from Chinese origin or descent that owns the Mongolian nationality.

I've added a clarification:

See here what an African American is (from the African American wikipedia article):

An African American (also Afro-American, Black American, or simply black) is a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Africa. Many African Americans have a degree of European, Native American, Asian and/or Latin American ancestry as well. The term refers specifically to black African ancestry; not, for example, to white or Arab African ancestry, such as Arab Moroccan or white South African ancestry. Definitively, African American means an American of black African descent.

So: an American African would mean that an American holds an African nationality.

Please move the page.

I'm not clear on what you want done here. At the time when you proposed the move, this article was a redirect. Now, Edipedia has made it an article about ethnic Mongols in China. Are you actually proposing to move under either of those circumstances?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 16:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Mongolian Chinese is one of the major ethnic minories in China. There should be an article about Mongolian Chinese. Edipedia 16:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine. But "Deadmaster" is proposing to move this article to Chinese Mongolian.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese Mongolian are Chinese people in Mongolian. Edipedia 19:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"Mongolian" implies a national of Mongolia. The proper term is 'Mongol', or in our case, "Mongols in China"--Jiang 20:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer Chinese Mongol to solve the problem. Septentrionalis 18:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. "Mongol" is at least unambiguous as it refers to ethnicity, not nationality or citizenship. I oppose moving to "Chinese Mongolian" or "MOngolian Chinese" as the terms are ambiguous and it seems that discussors above are not unified on what each means. --SigPig 21:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Like SigPig, I also oppose moving. The meaning of terms is established by convention among a community of people who use the terms, not by logical reasoning. Common sense rules (which definitely aren't common sense to everyone) such as "Xyzian always means citizens of Xyz, not people of Xyz descent" or "you put whichever one first depending on whether you want to emphasize ethnicity or citizenship" don't hold any weight here because Wikipedia is not supposed to be a prescriptive agency. It is not our role to complain that some widely-prevailing terms are "illogical" and should be replaced by something which some Wikipedians find more "logical". Instead, we should be using:

• Terms which the group in question prefers
• Terms which are more widely recognized in the academic community

Since there is no such consensus on terminology regarding the group in question, the more descriptive title Ethnic Mongolians in China should stand. See also similar discussions at Talk:Chinese Malaysian, Talk:Chinese Indonesian, Talk:Ethnic Koreans in China, etc. cab 03:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Relevant Wiki policies for above discussion

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names). I guess we're all in conflict over:

• Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
• In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative.

cab 03:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

language proficiency

Hi! Are there any numbers out there how many of the ethnic Mongols in China are fluent in Mongolian, or how many aren't? Yaan 17:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"Ethnic Mongols" vs "Mongols"

Isn't "ethnic Mongols" redundant, when Mongol is the ethnicity and Mongolian is the nationality? Is there any reason why this article shouldn't be moved to Mongols in China? Splittist (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

None that I can think of, although both titles are somewhat ambiguous. Can't think of anything better, though. Yaan (talk) 12:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Should I add a section on Mongol protests over ethnic grievances in Inner Mongolia?

The ethnic Mongolian protests that have swept a number of cities in Inner Mongolia and elsewhere in recent weeks are increasingly discussed in academic and press sources and are more and more relevant for Mongol life in China. See Ethnic Protests in China Have Lengthy Roots - NYTimes.com

Should I add a section on Mongol protests over ethnic grievances in Inner Mongolia? or is that WP:RECENTISM? I won't proceed without community input. --NickDupree (talk) 05:09, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The interpretation of the 2011 Xilinhot incident as an "ethnic grievance" rather than a land or environmental issue is a pretty big assumption. It might not only be recentism; it might also be putting huge undue emphasis on instances of perceived ethnic discord when by most press and academic accounts, Inner Mongolia has been a bastion of relative ethnic harmony for decades. You can see this viewpoint on the official Chinese news websites, and it's not just baseless propaganda. The New York Times will emphasize and exaggerate the ethnicity of suspect and criminal of a violent crime in China, but will omit (as will the rest of the American press) the ethnicity of suspect and criminal of a violent crime in America; and Wikipedia will generally respect that omission. Is there such a huge difference between how ethnicity affects crime in China and in America? Conflict may be fun and easy to write about, but conflict alone doesn't make for the most balanced and neutral articles, especially where ethnicity is concerned. If you have a particular passion for the subject, then please carefully review the literature with a healthy dose of historical perspective, and drop all a priori assumptions of a brewing race war in China. That you posted here instead of immediately making your edits is a good start. Quigley (talk) 04:34, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Quigley: I'm all about WP:CONCENSUS man. I agree with what you're saying about the Xilinhot protests, land and development, etc, and I never said anything about "a brewing race war in China," I just think the protests are widening, and beginning to encompass grievances over the disintegration of ancient steppe herding communities, and their language and culture. To quote the NYT piece:

Even if the government is not directly responsible for the ebb of Mongolian language and culture, many of those who joined the protests last week directed their ire at the Han officials who run the show in Inner Mongolia. They complained about increasing intermarriage, the heavy-handed censorship of local Web sites and the fact that Mongolian script on street signs is sometimes rendered smaller than the adjacent Chinese characters.

Obviously, pastoral lifestyles are becoming more and more obsolete as technology improves and globalization increases the availability of wool and lamb and goat meat, and that isn't the fault of the PRC. But there is resentment over how the government has sought to force out pastoral life with big money incentives and social policies. Inner Mongolia is the most unhappy place in China. Quoting your source from the Asia Times (which is excellent, by the way) "according to a research paper released in March by the Beijing-based China Economy Research Institute, if measured by its happiness index (the ratio between per capita income and per capita GDP), Inner Mongolia was on the very bottom of the list, even worse than Tibet and Xinjiang."

The New York Times article Ethnic Protests in China Have Lengthy Roots - NYTimes.com, mentions the Xilinhot incident but focuses on new demonstrations in Damao and their long historic roots. It was the article's historical perspective that caught my eye (how often do you read about Mongol horsemen and the Qing dynasty in the press?!). Wikipedia should summarize (and point readers toward) sources that discuss things in their historical context, like this NYT piece, like that Asia Times piece, while avoiding POV-pushing like the plague.

--NickDupree (talk) 21:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Mongol Chinese relations during the Ming

The Mongols in China: 1400-1450

Mongols were retained by the Ming within its territory.

in Guangxi Mongol archers paricipated in a war against Miao minorities.

A cavalry based army modeled on the Yuan military was implemented by the Hongwu and Yongle Emperors. Hongwu's army and officialdom incorporated Mongols.

The early Ming Emperors from Hongwu to Zhengde continued Yuan practices such as hereditary military institutions, demanding Korean concubines and eunuchs, having Muslim eunuchs, wearing Mongol style clothing and Mongol hats, speaking Mongolian, engaging in archery and horseback riding, patronizing Tibetan Buddhism, with the early Ming Emperors seeking to project themselves as "universal rulers" to various peoples such as Central Asian Muslims, Tibetans, and Mongols, modeled after the Mongol Khagan, however, this history of Ming universalism has been obscured and denied by historians who covered it up and presented the Ming as xenophobes seeking to expunge Mongol influence and presenting while they presented the Qing and Yuan as "universal" rulers in contrast to the Ming.

Zhengde defeated the Mongols under Dayan Khan. Muslim Central Asian girls were favored by Zhengde like how Korean girls were favored by Xuande. In 1517 the Mongols were defeated by Zhengde. Mongol clothing was worn by the military enthusiastic Zhengde emperor. A Uighur concubine was kept by Zhengde like the later Qing emperor Qianlong. Foreign origin Uighur and Mongol women were favored by the Zhengde emperor.

Tatar (Mongol) and Central Asian women were bedded by Zhengde and he wore Mongol clothing and was fluent in Mongol language, and he adopted Persian, Buddhist, and Mongol names and titles He 威武大將軍太師鎮國公 沙吉敖爛 大寶法王 忽必列.

Mongols in the nobility and military of Ming dynasty China

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2718543

CHINESE IN SOUTHERN MONGOLIA DURING THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY

http://www.jstor.org/stable/40726017

A MONGOL SETTLEMENT IN NORTH CHINA AT THE END OF THE 16TH CENTURY

http://www.jstor.org/stable/41926456

THE MONGOLS IN CHINA : 1400-1450

http://www.jstor.org/stable/40725869

Images of Subject Mongols Under the Ming Dynasty

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/late/summary/v025/25.1robinson.html

The Ming used Mongols in its military to fight in most of its wars, including crushing rebellions by southern ethnic minorities such as the Li in Hainan

Politics, Force and Ethnicity in Ming China: Mongols and the Abortive Coup of 1461

page 83

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2652684?seq=5

Han-Mongol Encounters and Missionary Endeavors: A History of Scheut in Ordos (Hetao) 1874-1911 By Patrick Taveirne

http://books.google.com/books?id=z2japTNPRNAC&pg=PA65

http://books.google.com/books?id=z2japTNPRNAC&pg=PA55

http://www.t-house.on-rev.com/KARUN/BACK_NOTES/Crossley_Making_Mongols.pdf

There is a case in the Taizong Shilu during the Yongle Emperor's reign about Mongol military officers exempted from administrative work because of their illiteracy and still getting paid, so some Chinese pretended to be Mongols to avoid doing work.

42 ○庚申 上謂兵部尚書劉俊曰武臣中有韃靼人多不識字難委以政故只令食祿遇有警急則用以征代今中國人亦有冒韃靼名以避政事者其曉諭改政不改政者罪之

[1] [2]

http://books.google.com/books?id=067On0JgItAC&pg=PA789&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=TCIjZ7l6TX8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ http://books.google.com/books?id=3H8uAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA411&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=e4PErdXlLhwC&pg=PA336&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA228&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=-BIGv9vIoqcC&pg=PA500&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=GEQvAAAAYAAJ&q=Mongol+general+ming&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ http://books.google.com/books?id=aU5hBMxNgWQC&pg=PA150&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=R0IDAAAACAAJ&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ http://books.google.com/books?id=Ur0z8EmtvqkC&pg=PA8&dq=Mongol+general+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-lG6ULDjLMjO0QGkpICYCg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20general%20ming&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=a4p9C6J35XYC&pg=PA69&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Ka6jNJcX_ygC&pg=PA14&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=ybmFuqReAqUC&pg=PA14&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=SE2Gw8rjuXQC&pg=PA129&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=aU5hBMxNgWQC&pg=PA53&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=oZjpcHnxH2QC&pg=PA131&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ http://books.google.com/books?id=067On0JgItAC&pg=PA789&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ediEaJSiprkC&pg=PA89&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA66&dq=Mongol+generals+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1K6UNfYAanB0QGbjYDICg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Mongol%20generals%20ming&f=false

Hami turfan http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA248&dq=Muslim+guards+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B1S6UJGGDtK90QHy_YHQCw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Muslim%20guards%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=xrGAXH_ne4IC&pg=PA1038#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=FZ4xHb9bCZAC&pg=PA144&dq=Muslim+guard+mongol+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eVS6UI-pMOXU0gHXpIHgAg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Muslim%20guard%20mongol%20ming&f=false

Muslims serving the Ming dynasty http://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1523&dq=Muslim+guard+mongol+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eVS6UI-pMOXU0gHXpIHgAg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Muslim%20guard%20mongol%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=xrGAXH_ne4IC&pg=PA1523&dq=Muslim+guard+mongol+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eVS6UI-pMOXU0gHXpIHgAg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Muslim%20guard%20mongol%20ming&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=eCMVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA26&dq=Muslim+guards+ming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B1S6UJGGDtK90QHy_YHQCw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Muslim%20guards%20ming&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 17:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

References

Folke Boberg's missionary work among mongols in china

http://books.google.com/books?id=oQ8BFk9K0ToC&pg=PA72&dq=Mongolian+English+dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b3zgUMSGCMWu0AHG8YCADg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Mongolian%20English%20dictionary&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cJJcQwAACAAJ&dq=Mongolian+English+dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b3zgUMSGCMWu0AHG8YCADg&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBg

http://books.google.com/books?id=FT1EAAAAIAAJ&dq=Mongolian+English+dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b3zgUMSGCMWu0AHG8YCADg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ

Rajmaan (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Attitudes toward intermarriage among Inner Mongolians

http://books.google.com/books?id=A9CY_WiDZrgC&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wr6SLwBiUZcC&pg=PA58#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jl_Zw9QzvxEC&pg=PA58#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Han who lived among Mongols in the 1930s

The Liaodong Han Chinese military frontiersmen were prone to mixing and acculturating with (non-Han) tribesmen.

Chinese soldiers served in the Yuan army against the Ming, and the Mongols were joined by many Chinese defectors. The Mongol Mangui served in the Ming military and fought the Manchus, dying in battle against a Manchu raid. Some Chinese who lived among the Mongols of Inner Mongolians, while in their youth, adopted Mongol culture and married a Mongol women but when he became old he would would come back and lived with the Han Chinese again. One Han Chinese military officer who defected to the Mongols was "Monkey Li" (Li Huai) who fought against the Ming.

The Jurchen Manchus accepted and assimilated Han Chinese soldiers who defected. 1613 was the year the name "Manchu" was recorded before 1635 when it was made the official name of the Jurchen ethnicity.

Liaodong Han Chinese transfrontiersmen soldiers acculturated to Manchu culture and used Manchu names. Manchus lived in cities with walls surrounded by villages and adopted Chinese style agriculture before the Qing conquest of the Ming.

The Han Chinese transfrontismen abandoned their Han Chinese names and identities and Nurhaci's secretary Dahai might have been one of them.

Rajmaan (talk) 09:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

References

Qing divide and rule policy between Khoshot and Khalkha Mongols

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA311#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 05:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HIEA 140 REMOTE China since 1978

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 April 2023 and 10 June 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): The Educator3 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by The Educator3 (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)