Talk:Everton F.C./Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

older entries

I belive that Tobias Linderoth and Preki should not appear in the list of Everton's notable players. They certainly played for Everton, but they were not notable. (Sorry forgot to sign. --Etimbo 15:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC))

• Why remove the Bahasa Melayu link? I know it's not a complete article yet, but it was just started. Give us time to complete the article. We have fans over in Malaysia.

• 'mostly thanks to a ludicrous decision by Italian referee Pierluigi Collina to disallow a perfectly legitimate Everton goal late in the second leg' -- I thought that we were not supposed to use opinion and this clearly is......

• Well, Collina's decision was described as dubious by all who've seen the incident. I think this sentence merely states the fact that a serious mistake had been made by the referee. (A mistake topped by a lame excuse of seeing someone else on the other side of the field commiting a foul.) It could've been phrased better, though. --Biziclop 12:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"Quite simply, "Dixie" Dean was the greatest scoring machine that the English game has seen, or ever is, likely to see" - Perhaps needs a bit of taming

Needs a bit of taming? That is fact whatever club you support, he was a legend, and in his prime scored not 1 goal a game, but averaging 2 goals a game. That is pheonomonal. That sentence should stand untouched, lest we take away the shine from the legend of Dixie Dean.

And that is why you sound like a fanboy. And that is why the sentence is rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.216.84 (talk) 11:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Major overhaul

Everton F.C.s page is very far behind the likes of Arsenal F.C., Liverpool F.C. and Manchester United. Big changes are needed. First I am suggesting a new page is created for Everton History. On the main page cut the history down but give a link to a history of Everton page which has far more detail. This is common practice with big clubs and seeing as Everton have a very long history it seems appropriate. I have made this page History of Everton F.C. which is really just a copy of the history on the main page. Basically now this page needs expanding and history on the old page needs chopping down. I am seeking approval before doing this. I have also added a new Everton template to several Everton pages template:Everton F.C. SenorKristobbal 13:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

as no-one is saying anything I'm going to go ahead and do it SenorKristobbal 14:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

cut it down a bit but to be honest it needs cutting down more. I'm waiting for the inevitable backlash from people not reading this or the "for more" link. SenorKristobbal 15:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the current page with the historic kits and the line-ups is looked better than ever...well done to everyone involved.--RoyalBlueStuey 08:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Records

Regarding the records, I'm quite sure the victory against Derby was in the FA Cup not the league, and the 7-0 to Arsenal is not our record defeat. I'm going to go looking and see what I can come up with.

7-0 is our record defeat. Prior to that it was 4-10 vs Tottenham Hotspur, 11 October 1958. Tottenham also beat us 6-0 on Christmas Day 1956, but the defeat at Arsenal is the first time we've lost a league game by a seven goal margin.

Actually, Everton have been beaten 7-0 on four occasions.

26 December 1934 away v Sunderland 22 February 1939 away v Wolverhampton Wanderers 10 September 1949 away v Portsmouth 11 May 2005 away v Arsenal

I'm still at a loss as to explaining why numerous sources still show Everton's record defeat as the 4-10 match against Tottenham Hotspur in 1958. True, that's the most goals Everton have conceded in a single match, but to say it's the worst defeat is, in my opinion, wrong. It's like sayng a 9-10 defeat is worse than a 0-6 defeat!

Steve Flanagan, Statistician for Toffeeweb

2008/2009 kit

The new away kit has a grey and navy stripe across the chest. Any artistic types care to add it?RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 10:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Famous Fans

I had to get rid of the 2 Beatles in this section as the claims are on pretty shaky grounds. I also removed Owen, Fowler and Rush as they're surely ex-fans thanks to their dalliances with the kopites. Dancarney 20:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No complaint here. I'd also suggest that having footballers (current or ex) listed as famous fans is proably not the best idea, as the list could be huge! For me anyway, Famous fans should be for notable people outside of the football world interested in the particular club. MartinRe 20:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Personally i am really tempted to remove the section as a whole, considering that the ones that have been removed have been re added, and it has no references backing up the idea that any of the persons listed are fans. I have tagged the section with {{Not verified}}, and will have to mull over to remove the section or not, i am also question the relevance of such a list. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you can safely add Matt Dawson to the list (the English rugby union player). He stated on a recent episode of "Question of Sport" that he was an Evertonian. Steve Flanagan.

Raoul Duke? If that isn't a joke, it needs a citation. Zerologic 02:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Would it not be a good idea to run this section with the following statement. 'A famous fan designated here as a celebrity, politician or sports personality from a sport other than soccer who has been seen in the public eye while attending a game or stated their support of the club during interview.

When this criteria is applied very few actually fill the list.

Leonard Rossitor...His love of Everton was shown in a 1970s match programme when interviewed by the club. Sylvester Stallone...Is more a general soccer fan without any particular club. Expressed his Evertonian link when parading on the field with a scarfe at half time during a game. Bill Kenwright..Is the chairman Jenny Seagrove...His other half and just as passionate as him. A regular attender who stated on who wants to be a Millionaire how great the club are in her eyes. Claire Sweeney..regular attender at games, seen on tv at the game vs Metalist Kharkov. Derek Hatton...former politician, regularly stated his links in interviews. Nigel Dodds, Belfast member of parliament is the chair of the Northern Ireland Everton supporters club.

This then rules out people like Paul McCartney who as a kid visited both Everton and Liverpool but couldn't be classed as a true Evertonian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.22.20 (talk) 13:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

everton is the best

i love everton they are the best my dad soports everton as well and my brother soports man u from elizabeth marsh in south wales

"* Youngest Ever Player to play in a league match: James Vaughan, 16 yrs and 271 days old, 4-0 v Crystal Palace, 10 April 2005

• Youngest Ever Player to score in a league match: James Vaughan, 16 yrs and 271 days old, 4-0 v Crystal Palace, 10 April 2005 (i.e. he is also the second youngest player to score in a league debut beaten only by Jason Dozzel)"

Surely this can't be accurate. If Jason Dozzel scored in a league match on his debut whislt younger than Vaughn surely he is the youngest ever league player or the youngets ever player to score in a league match?

If it is meant to be a club record or a preimership record could this be made clear, other wise surely this is incorrect or misleading?

Vaughan is officially the youngest ever Premiership scorer, which may need highlighting. Steve Flanagan, Statistician for Toffeeweb

GOO EVERTON!!

Sectarianism

I've just removed this from the Nickname section of the article:

"This may be a consequence of the fact that, along with other cities such as Glasgow, also Liverpool once used to have a sort of religious sectarian rivalry, with Everton being traditionally identified as the Roman Catholic club, and Liverpool F.C. standing out as the Protestant club. This distinction definitely decreased during the last decades, and nowadays it is actually extinct."

This is a discussion that comes up endlessly. Their certainly used to be a sectarian division in Liverpool, but how this influenced choice of team to support is heavily debated. I think that this can't be included unless a decent citation can be found. Dancarney 09:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

== Sorry, but I had to include Sir Paul McCartney as an Everton supporter, since the Beatle openly declared it several times. Please check out the official Everton F.C. site. Pete Best is a self confessed Evertonian (check his own site as well), and I'm about to quote something about the sectarian distinction between Everton and Liverpool very soon. Gianmaria Framarin 14:12, 31 May 2006

Re Sectarianism : I must admit that was my understanding of it but as Gianmaria said it's definitely extinct apart from the references like "To hell with Liverpool and Rangers too" in the song The Royal Blue Mersey. There was a lot of low level sectarianism around I think, never even 1% of what goes on up in Glasgow. Manchester United used to be the catholic club in Manchester. User:RoyalBlueStuey 14:45, 31 May 2006

I suppose this can't be used, but my father, who went to the matches in the 50's and 60's told me that there used to be (in the 50's) an unwritten rule on Merseyside saying that if you were born a Roman Catholic you were an Evertonian and a Protestant baby was a Liverpudlian. Whether this is anything to do with Secterianism, in the form seen in Glasgow, is surely debatable. Then again it may have come about from the fact that in the 50's Everton had a very strong Irish presence with Peter Farrell, Tommy Eglington, Peter Corr, etc being in the Everton side at that time - Steve Flanagan.

Liverpool FC also has very close ties to Celtic FC which is a catholic club.

LFC and the Liverpool Protestant Association

I think some people here desperately want to gainsay any religious link with either and all football clubs and are prepared to re-write history in order to do so. If you are going to bother writing an article on Everton FC (or Liverpool FC) comprised of more than statistics, why wouldn't one account for the early history of the club? These protestations of 'relevance' belie an attempt to do just that. For most of the 20th century until relatively recent times, Everton was strongly associated with the Catholic community of Liverpool and LFC with Protestants. Liverpool FC also had associations with the Orange Order, the Working Mans Conservatice Association

“ Liverpool F.C. were founded by John Houlding in 1892 to play in his Anfield stadium. For the previous seven years the stadium had been used by Everton F.C.. However, in 1891, Houlding, the leaseholder of Anfield, purchased the ground outright and proposed increasing the rent from £100 to £250 a year. The Everton members objected, left Anfield and moved to Goodison Park. With an empty ground and just three players remaining, Houlding decided to form his own football club and on 15 March 1892, Liverpool Football Club was born. The original name was to be Everton F.C. and Athletic Grounds, Ltd., or Everton Athletic for short, but was changed to Liverpool F.C. when The Football Association refused to recognise the team as Everton. John McKenna was appointed director and signed thirteen Scottish professionals for the new club. Liverpool were elected to the Football League Second Division for the 1893–94 season. They ended the season unbeaten as Second Division Champions, and were promoted to the First Division. In 1901, Liverpool won their first Football League championship; a feat that was repeated in 1906. They played their first FA Cup final in 1914, but lost 1-0 to Burnley. Contrary to some popular opinion, Liverpool F.C. has strong roots in Protestantism rather than Catholicism. Several of the clubs early directors were connected to the Orange Order, including founder John Houlding and John McKenna. Liverpool F.C. also had strong connections to the Working Men's Conservative Association (WMCA), the political expression of the Liverpool Protestant Association. ”

Sectarianism was rife in Liverpool, according to the Liverpool Walk of faith magazine:

“ the early 20th century saw many decades of sectarianism with Protestant and Catholic Church leaders barely on speaking terms ”

George Wise, latterly of the aforementioned 'Liverpool Protestant Association' formed the Liverpool Protestant Party, as the Conservative & Unionist Party was not deemed sufficiently 'unionist' or Protestant enough. It contested local elections until 1973, in the (former) Liverpool wards of St Domingo and Netherfield.

The former Liverpool Bill Shankly-era player, Tommy Smith, in an interview recounted how the headmaster of his school warned him against playing for LFC :

“ My Dad was a Liverpudlian so by rights I was a Liverpudlian. I got offers to go to other teams but the only one I wanted to go to was Liverpool. The headmaster at our school, he said ‘Tommy, do you realise you are going to a Protestant club?’ I was a Catholic anyway. I asked him what difference that made and he said ‘Everton are the Catholics and Liverpool are the Protestants.’ But I just told him I didn’t care because I just wanted to go to Liverpool because they are my team. ”

Life-long LFC fan and former lead sing of the Farm, Peter Hooton listing Anfield favourites

“ 7. 'If You're Feeling Tired And Lonesome'. This is another traditional song. As Liverpool had the tradition of being the protestant club, years and years ago, a lot of these tunes are linked to marching songs, the type you'd hear on July 12th. ”

Everton's Catholic support

An irate letter-writer to the Guardian illucidates the origin of Everton's Catholic support:

“ The origins of Everton's catholic support lie in the late 19th century when Dr Baxter, a prominent Catholic doctor and a leading light in the catholic community, joined the Everton board. He brought with him the thousands of Irish Catholic families from the Scotland Road area who duly became Everton supporters, despite Everton's origins as a Methodist team (the old St Domingo's).

The Catholic dimension was maintained in various ways at Everton, not least in the 1950s when the core of the Everton team hailed from the Republic of Ireland.

This is what led the Labour MP for Walton, the late Eric Heffer, to explain in his biography Never a Yes Man that he was obliged to lean towards Everton because as the Catholic team it was closer to his own High Anglicanism than the more orange-tinged Protestantism of Liverpool FC.

”

The writer highlighted a number of sectarian incidents:

“ at a derby game in 1986 when Everton supporters were allocated a third of the kop. I was at the very edge of the Everton section and was greeted by Liverpool supporters holding up banners and placards and waving them at us. The legend on these placards was "Ulster says no" - the protestant slogan at the time of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Amongst the Everton supporters there were more than a few Irish tricolours waved back at the protesting Liverpool fans;

• at Dave Watson's testimonial match (late 1990s), Everton versus Rangers, a huge mob of Rangers fans stormed up Goodison Road attacking Everton fans and screaming at them "fenian bastards".

”

Also, Everton FC's natural catchment area would be predominantly Catholic. Even the Catholic Hierarchy are avid Everton fans (anyone who would have visited the Augustinian Nuns would note their support for Everton also!)

Apparently (upon the Ordination of the new auxilliary Bishop of Liverpool, Rt Rev Thomas Williams, at the Metropolitan Cathedral in 2003), Most Rev Patrick Kelly, Archbishop of Liverpool said :

“ Especially as Bishops, we shall not allow the false accusers of the brethren to make us downcast, burdened and gloomy. . .Indeed, eyes shall shine with zest for life as if, well, the Blues always won. ”

Saint Domingo Road is the location for the Catholic Institute and (formerly) the Church of OUR LADY OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, which was re-located in the 1980s.

For what it's worth the Lonely Planet guidebook for the UK specifically mentions "Catholic Everton and Protestant Liverpool". As a born and bread Scouser I have never experienced any sectarian football bias in my lifetime but I assume going back a generation that's the way it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyalBlueStuey (talk • contribs) 10:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Macca

Come on, Dancarney, check the Everton F.C. official website...Sir Paul is a self-confessed Evertonian...Gianmaria Framarin 15:25, 31 May 2006

I can't find anything about Macca on the Club website (www.evertonfc.com) - if you put "Paul McCartney" into the search facility you get no hits. Here's a McCartney quote from Toffeweb, a fan site -

"I went occasionally to watch football. My family team was Everton and I went to Goodison Park a couple of times with my uncles Harry and Ron. They were nice memories for me, but I wasn't that keen on football." [1]

On the strength of that, I suggest that McCartney shouldn't be in the list of famous fans as he's not really a 'fan'. If you can come up a citation contradicting that, then fair enough. Can't find anything on Pete Best's website either.

Backroom Staff

I think this section is probably unecessary, and making the page a bit bloated. Anyone else think it should be got rid of? Dancarney 13:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Macca II ,Best and Everton Roman Catholic club

Well, as far as Sir Paul is concerned, I guess that quote would instead be enough to describe the man as an Evertonian (he was even asked to enter in the ownership of the club several times...just an accident then?). I also own a tape of him being interviewed by the Italian television where he claims being an Evertonian, but I can't obviously provide with it.

Pete Best: I have the link to a question of mine on his site about football, where he's reported being an Evertonian. May I link it here? Okay, please tell me how to do it and it will be done.

I also own two links about Lennon and Harrison if you please, so I'd be glad to do the same...

As far as sectarianism is concerned I also have links about this, clearly showing that Everton used to be regarded as a Roman Catholic club (also in the words of Catholic Liverpool supporters - check the book "Faith of our Fathers" by Alan Edge).

RoyalBlueStuey is totally right.

Try and think about it, Dancarney: why should Irishmen prefer Everton to Liverpool then?

I could provide a link to Edge's book with a quote regarding him saying Everton was the Catholic club, if you tell me how to do it, it will be done. Promised.

No, Dancarney, the section is totally necessary, the more the better, history is history and I guess Wikipedians would like to know anything about it. Gianmaria Framarin 16:02, 31 May 2006

The way to put a link in is to put the full address inside square brackets. Please add them and then it's all verified and acceptable. A beginner's guide to editing is here.

I'm not denying that there's a definite religious bias, I'm just not sure as to how severe it was, i.e. whether being a Catholic guaranteed supporting Everton, etc. Anyway, most Irish people I know support Liverpool, but that's irrelevant. There's an interesting article(with responses) here, again from the Toffeeweb site. From that, and my Dad's and other anecdotal evidence, I suspect that Everton were the team for the large Irish population of Liverpool, due to the influx of Irish players during the 50s, and what with Catholicism being an important feature of the Irish identity Everton being the Catholic team seemed a logical extension. The team was founded by Methodists, St Luke's is C of E, it all seems a bit of a hazey area. But, if you've got a good citation, then I'm more than happy to accept that.

If you have evidence showing that Macca (or anyone else) is a 'fan', rather than merely being from a family of Evertonians that would be excellent.Dancarney 20:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've got no problem with citing that Everton was more favoured by the Roman Catholics on Scotland Road as long is it's made absolutely clear that in my lifetime (30 years) there has never been any sectarian bias or bigotry involved from either side. If you look at the footbage from the 80s there is the odd Irish flag on the Gwladys St and we all remember those Everton&Celtic bobble hats but it was just a throwback tradition rather than a fierce rivalry. As for the famous fans issue : A few games when you were a kid don't really qualify you as a blue. It's a fact Paul McCartney and for that matter Stevie Gerrard might have favoured the club when they were young but I don't suppose they still do. The likes a Jamie Carragher and Wayne Rooney are still Evertonians though and probably always will be. User:RoyalBlueStuey 08:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Stuey, I guess we agree on a lot of things and I do think the Catholic/Protestant old divide should be quoted precising it is obviously extinct. As far as McCartney is concerned, I can assure you he said he's a Toffee on many occasions and I'll try and provide with any kind of quote about this. He always said his family team is Everton, even though the club hasn't been doing so well lately, so he always let us understand he's not a footie maniac, he probably wouldn't cry all night long if Liverpool won another treble, but he still is a Toffee, no doubt. I'll provide with the info, don't worry. I'll also try and quote Alan Edge's book on the Catholic/Protestant divide as well. Gianmaria Framarin 3:53 3 June 2006

We're hitting on many contencious issues by citing celebrity fans - especially when there's little firm grounding behind it. With reference to McCartney (and indeed The Beatles) they attempted to distance themselves from displaying any bias towards any Merseyside club (to paraphrase George Harrison - 'There are football 3 clubs on Merseyside and I support the other one'). Although Everton has indeed been mentioned by Macca in the past, there is a famous photo of The Beatles where McCartney is seen to be wearing a Liverpool scalf. This cannot be used as definitive proof that he was a red either and this side of an offical soundbite it's going to be difficult to sight one over the other.

Also, Clive Tyldsley is stated as an Evertonian. Although he was a local DJ on Merseyside Mr. Tyldsley has stated in past interviews that he is, in fact, a Manchester United fan and makes no effort to hide the fact (which is even abuntantly clear during his ITV commentary and his constant references to the 'magic night in Barcelona')

I must also pick up on the Stephen Gerrard reference in this discussion. He is a self-confessed red who may well have had mixed loyalties as a child - which is common - but has stated more than once that he was a childhood red (his favourite player being Ronnie Whelan). Owen had the chance to attend both Liverpool and Everton games and has not firmly stated his allegiance to either. (Eddie Lawson 11/06/06)

There was an article in eaither 4-4-2 Magazine or Observer Sport Monthly a while back where Owen talked about all the Evertonians at liverpool fc. He referred to Everton as 'we'. I wouldn't say Gerrard was a boyhood blue but there is that picture of him in the Everton trophy room in his Everton kit. That'd suggest some divided loyalties. Stuey

Well, I've removed Macca and Clive Tyldesley for the moment - until some proof arrives. I think current footballers are difficult to include in the fan section of any club as they're sure to have divided loyalties, unless they're playing for their boyhood team (e.g. Stubbs). I'm not sure that it's worth listing famous fans anyway. Any well-supported club is bound to have a load of famous fans, thus making it uninteresting. It makes me think of watching the FA Cup on telly when a small team does well and the team's celebrity fan is tiresomely wheeled out for an interview (think Willie Carson at Swindon, Danny Baker at Millwall) and that seems a bit below a club like Everton. I'm sure the likes of Liverpool, Man U and Arsenal don't have an equivalent on their pages. Dancarney 23:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable Players

The Notable Players list is getting a bit out of control. This graph (PDF) presents a snapshot of how top–heavy the list has become. It shows the number of players from each decade who have been declared "notable" alongside the league placing across that decade. The first and last decades are shortened. League performance is measured as the sum of the inverse of each season's final placing to give a "longer bars are better" visual. This means that a perfect decade of first placed finishes would score 10 on the y-axis.

Everton's most successful decade in the league, the 1890s, boasts a total of one notable player. The second most successful, the 1980s, has a whopping 13. This is, obviously, because people are using the notable players list as a favourite players list instead.

I personally favour following Everton's lead on this issue and including only the players on their giants list and the greatest ever team. At the very least, it should be limited to players who have been retired from the game for, say, ten years. That could help to take at least a little of the emotion out of the list. ⁂veila# 13:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice graph! Players still at the club don't need to be in this list, and neither does Gary Speed. I think the lists from the club website are a bit too selective, but I think some historical perspective could do with being applied Dancarney 14:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with this but I think each player in notable players should have all the years they were at the club and not just one year eg. 1976-1979 etc. SenorKristobbal 18:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It may be worth putting a list up of all Everton players who are David France's "Gwladys Street Hall of Fame" which provides a much fairer bias, in my opinion, with more "early" players as well as quite a few from the sixties and eighties. Steve Flanagan, Statistician for ToffeeWeb

I really have to disagree with Dancarney

No, man, it is not uninteresting to know who your fans are, this goes for Everton AS WELL AS for any other big club: I do care for that section and will do my best to keep it alive here and anywhere else.

The Macca affair: as you can clearly see, I did nothing after you removed him, although you DO have proofs of him being an Evertonian, and I don't know why you don't want to accept it...Maybe because he's a Beatle and he must remain untouchable and not take his own side? Or maybe you're a Liverpudlian?

Yes, a photo was taken with him wearing that red scarf, well, Liverpool F.C. had to exploit the Beatles as you all can imagine, but in reality Macca and Harrison were both Evertonians (the first one stated it, the second one didn't though there are witnesses, so I didn't write his name here) and Lennon attended Everton's F.A. Cup's final match in 1966, and NO LIVERPOOL F.C. important match at all: why? Should I add Lennon's name as well then? As you can see, I'm not doing it, although I could quote this FACT.

Even if you checked out Everton fans' site (as you DID) you'd find Sir Paul's name there, no doubt, and you removed it only because they said "he wasn't that keen on football", though a self-admitted Evertonian of course... As I told you, I ALSO HAVE A VIDEO INTERVIEW OF HIM SAYING HE'S A BLUE.

As for Mr Tyldsley, as you can see, I will accept the "proof" someone else gave us, so I'll do nothing about it. I'm right and objective as you can see.

What do I have to do then? Ask Sir Paul directly? Is this a challenge? Okay, I'll take it, I did it with Pete Best (why don't you remove him too then? You have "no proofs"...), I'll do this with Sir Paul as well and REPORT IT HERE.

I know he's an Evertonian, we all know it (us Toffees) and we're content with it, so the fact he's not appearing here won't change our own lives, but just try and think at what you're doing to those who don't know and would probably like to...

BTW, why don't you go to the Italian Wikipedia page? I personally wrote Sir Paul is an Evertonian there as well, so why not erase him?

I'm actually flabbergasted... Gianmaria Framarin 20:51 14 June 2006

Why Macca is not a blue

He was on TFI Friday about five years ago and was asked whether he was a blue or a red. He said he had duel allegiance, because his dad was an Everton fan, BUT, that because Everton aren't very good he's also a Liverpool fan. I can't think of any real blue who would ever say something like that, and it's another reason why I think he's a twat.

I seen McCartney's appearance on TFI and I can't remember him saying anything about also being a Liverpool fan "because Everton are not very good". He actually said he tries to support both "but you're not really allowed to do that". In fact, McCartney was an Everton fan until the 60's when it became common for Scouse celebs to associate with Shankly's Liverpool (Cilla and Gerry Marsden were both Blues who turncoated in the 60's). McCartney apparently changed alliegances but supposedly has drifted back to Everton since the 70's, although he attended Everton's 1966 cup final. If anything, he's a Blue, but he seems to have no bias against Liverpool. He isn't actually very interested in football anyway, he prefers baseball. The Beatles had a policy of not mentioning which team they supported in case they alienated the other half of the city, but Lennon and Harrison had no interest in football whatsover and didn't really support either team, Ringo is an Arsenal fan according to his family, because of the influence of an uncle from London. McCartney is the only Beatle to take any interest at all in Mersyside football. MarkB79 16:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is Delron Buckley in the History of Everton?

Firstly, I apologise for not consulting about a big deletion. However the material is already in the detailed history, (and it shouldn't be there either). We have already recognised that keeping the subject of Everton F.C. to a single page is impossible. The history on the main page can therefore only have the main events since 1878 but I cannot believe the signing of Delron Buckley is one of them. More detailed material must be put into specialised articles by creating summaries of each season. I suggest that an article is created called Everton F.C. 2006-7 season and we start adding similar events. Brief summaries of a season can go into the History of Everton F.C.. Delron Buckley can make it to the main page when he scores a hat-trick in the 2008 Champions League final. JMcC 07:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Supporters

I am unsure about wanting Everton supporters as being described as "hard to face" and "questioning every decision of the referee". Are these attributes that Everton supporters are really proud of? JMcC 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

hard to face is good. Players are going to find it hard against an opponent with such vocal support. The question every decision was a compliment from Mourinho. SenorKristobbal 17:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have completely re-done the supporters section. SenorKristobbal 13:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it true that Everton and Liverpool fans are unsegregated when playing on a nuetral ground? If so, I think it should be mentioned for both clubs as it is noteworthy.

---

Replay : I doubt it would happen now...Everton did it in the early noughties at a derby. We didn't have an away section just gave the liverpool fans random tickets. The game passed over without any problems but Roy Evans was bleating afterwards that the policy disadvantaged his team. RoyalBlueStuey 11:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

History section

Can someone more able than I please set about developing a more cogent history section. The way it looks now, with all the different sentences instead of paragraphs, is disjointed and difficult to read. Teamhero 12:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have made efforts to do that now. Other people seem to be making good tweaks to my edit. SenorKristobbal 13:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Article Intro

What is the need for all the superfluous talk at the beginning of the article?

IMO it should just be a quick overview of the club- where we're from, when we were founded, trophies achieved etc What is the need to have, for example, opinion on David Moyes in there?

Not to mention that whole second paragraph makes us sound small time in the extreme! Who agrees? Iamlimbo 20:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Please sign comments with 4~s. The intro is fine, I have no idea what you are eluding to. It is written in the same style as Manchester City which was recently featured. SenorKristobbal 13:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree the intro is now fine, it has been radically altered since I posted this comment. Didn't know about the signing with four~'s until now. Well done on the featured content candidacy. Iamlimbo 20:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ted Sagar

How many games did Ted Sagar play for Everton? Under the Everton Giants header it says 500, but under Records and statistics it says 495. Everton Results says 500, but that includes 5 "other" games. Two of these "other" games could be Charity Shield games (check the CS line-ups for 1932/33 and 1933/34 at footballsite), but what about the other three? /83.227.2.55 16:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Player Bios

Is there a decent website that gives career info etc for ex-Everton players? If anyone could let me know of one, I'd be grateful. It'd be useful for future articles. Thanks. EH74DK 19:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[[2]] is a good source on former players. Biziclop 12:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Today's featured article request

This is currently a candidate for today's featured article. Show support here [3] Buc 06:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Records - first televised match

Could someone show me where this "first televised match against Arsenal in 1936" record comes from? Many sources (eg. Arsenal's official site) tell a different story. According to them the first televised match was played in 1937 by Arsenal vs. Arsenal Reserves. Biziclop 12:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Locking

I really think this and the other Everton pages should be protected (Phil Neville, David Moyes, Andy Johnson etc). It's getting boring having to revert out vandalsim & 'hilarious' jibes left there by our completely un-bitter, un-obsessed red bretherin. It each and every day. RoyalBlueStuey 10:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed spoken version (now added)

I intend to record a spoken version of this article for Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. Before I start, would any kind Evertonian please confirm the correct pronunciation of former player Sam Chedgzoy's surname? I have a feeling it might be one of those not-very-intuitive pronunciations, and I don't want to get it wrong! Thanks. Hassocks5489 11:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've only ever heard Chedgzoy's name pronounced SHED-ZOY, the G seems to be silent. That's they way John Motson pronounces it on the 'Official History of Everton F.C.' BBC Video from the 80's, and I've never heard his name pronounced any other way, although I cannot confirm for certain that it is the way it is supposed to be pronounced. MarkB79 04:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick response Mark! Hope to start recording it this week. Hassocks5489 07:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd back up that pronunciation. Great to see someone willing to do a spoken version of this article. SenorKristobbal 14:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. I have added the spoken version today. Hassocks5489 19:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for doing that, you've done a good job. MarkB79 16:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Everton Managers

I think Theo Kelly should be removed from this list, as he wasn't technically in charge of team affairs when we won the League in 1939.

At that point he was Club Secretary, whilst the board as a whole chose the team.

Kelly wasn't actually appointed manager until July 1946. This is confirmed in the official club ledgers currently held in the David France/Everton Collection and is further confirmed in Dr. France's recent book on his collection - Everton Treasures.

Steveflan 09:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Gravesen

He's returned on a season long loan from Celtic (http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/gravesen-back.html), so somebody should add him to the team list (I would but obviously it's locked). 81.179.145.2 18:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

And just when I realise I can't edit the article because I'm not logged in, someone does it anyway. Talk about efficient, guys! AlbertSimon 18:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Everton Collection

I think it is necessary to include a link to the Everton Collection page, maybe in the history section. As Christie's and Sotheby's have said, it is the most complete and most impressive single club collection in the world, and as the trust has now secured lottery funding to purchase the collection, it should be remembered as a part of Everton as a whole. Steveflan 12:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fan section

Should there not be something saying about Everton having the most fans who walk to the ground in the premiership? I remember a survey found that out about 5 years ago but I cant find it now. Also a mention of the strong Irish and Welsh support we have at Goodison. I just can't understand why it talks about Sly Stallone and fans in the far east and not the people who visit most games. Xenomorph1984 8 Jan 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 12:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Crest image

The fair use of Image:Everton crest.PNG was criticized at the FAR and I have cut it for now. I'm no pro in this area, so maybe people familiar can decide if it's usable. It was suggested that each of the three images needs a rationale. Marskell (talk) 10:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. Firstly the image is pretty poor and could be removed altogether in my opinion. However, thinking about the licence issue then a sporting logo fair use rationale could be added, I'll do it now and see how we go with it. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

McCartney Again

I think this page from the official site puts to rest any questions regarding the ex-Beatle's allegiances football-wise [4] Steveflan (talk) 17:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Current Season

As a result of various other football teams having '2007-8 Season' pages on Wikipedia, I've started one for Everton. All it has at the moment is an infobox with some odd details and the squad list but I figured that a season that has been fairly noteworthy for Everton FC (and hopefully will be even more noteworthy when we finished 4th) would do well to be chronicled on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C._season_2007-08 Any contributions to it would be well appreciated. Thanks AlbertSimon (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Crest at top of page

It might sound a little sad that I noticed this, but the badge is not the one currently in use, look closely at the two wreaths and you'll see that they are larger than normal, plus the font for NSNO is in a different. I think this badge was used on either last season or the season before that one's kits. The current crest can be viewed on the Everton Tigers page (minus the 'Tigers').

Xenomorph1984 (talk) 10:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Merseyside

Hello everyone, I hope this isn't considered spam but it seemed like a suitable place to ask around and see if there might be people here who would be interested in supporting and contributing to a Wikiproject focusing on Merseyside. I'm trying to gauge if there is suitable interest before making a formal proposal. Cheers Zenichiro (talk) 19:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Developmental Partnerships

I don't know how common it is for Premier League or major clubs to have developmental or training academies in foreign countries, but Everton has two in my home state of Pennsylvania, both referenced here on EvertonFC.com. In the east is FC Revolution, a youth developmental program, and in the west is Riverhounds FC, a USL Second Division club in Western PA near Pittsburgh. Would these be worth adding to the "Relationships with other clubs" section of the Everton FC main page? JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Everton Ladies

There is not a single mention of Everton Ladies, who are part of the Everton organization as clearly shown by the club's official web site, and one of the more successful English teams. I think this should be corrected! Robles (talk) 11:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

Okay

First of we ought to drop the nickname 'The peoples club' this isn't our nickname and never will be. Yes it was great when we were identified as being the real club club of Merseyside nay Liverppol but this is not one of our 'nicknames'.

Surely we should have 'School of science'(with reference) 'The Black Watch' etc listed. So many young supporters need to know about this history and through this portal they can learn!!

We also ought to change Goodison Park capacity now. Over recent years more seats have been taken away from good upstanding evertonians and given to the 'Corporate fans'

Our capacity now stands at 40,214 Goodison Park figures this last season.

It's also about time we showed some of our older (original) badges/club crests.

Maybe with these items you'll allow me to join you on this quest for a ever better Everton page on Wikipedia?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trueblue1975 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Official: Obinna Signs For Inter, Loaned To Everton

Hi,

Just thought I'd mention that the squad for Everton FC needs to be updated. Chievo striker Victor Obinna has joined

Everton on a 1 year loan from Inter Milan. Also Louis Saha is also strongly rumored to have almost completed a move

to Everton pending a medical so keep an eye on that one. Although with Saha pending a medical is far from a sure thing.

Thanks.

David Langham --Dlan4327 (talk) 10:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

All-time honours table

Everton are the 6th most successful club in English football in all competitions. People need to keep an eye on the introduction section, it keeps being changed by a delusional fan who is not interested in the facts.

I see. So Everton are less successful than Tottenham Hotspur. Everton have won nine league championships, Tottenham have won...two. So in the wacky world of Wikipedia a club that has won the title just twice in its history can be regarded as more successful than a club that has won nine provided they've won lots of knockout cups. Aston Villa accorded to this logic are above Everton because of their four League Cup wins, despite having won less actual league titles (although at least Villa have won a good number of titles, unlike Spurs). Can you see how proposterous this is? That the Mickey Mouse League Cup is considered equal to the league championship or even the European Cup? If you think Spurs are more successful historically than Everton, a club which despite its lofty status has won only two titles in its history and the most recent nearly 50 years ago, then I wouldn't be dishing out allegations of people being 'delusional' if I were you. I've got the Sunday Times History of Football in front of me and it says Everton are the fourth most successful English club. There are any number of neutral websites that say the same. 'Total number of trophies' is irrelevant, the Carling Cup does not amount to the same thing as a league championship. By your absurd logic, if a club had won 25 Carling Cups but never got near the title, we'd still have to place them above Arsenal! Anyway, we can't use Wiki pages for sources, so I guess we'll have to rely on the Sunday Times History of Football and just about every other neutral that figure out that championship titles count for more than tinpot league cups? 92.10.226.58 (talk) 15:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

4th looks a reasonably good shout to me. Leagues have to be weighted more than League Cups. It must be close between Villa and Everton (because of the European cups win) but Spurs are surely below. 4th or 5th but defintely not 6th RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 17:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"A reasonably good shout" is not good enough, particularly if your point of view differs from someone elses. It is not up to Wikipedia to determine the relative weightings of the various competitions. It is better to say that Everton are Nth in total number of trophies won than to say that they are the Nth most successful club, but even better would be just to state the raw facts, i.e. how many of each trophy they have won, and let the reader draw their own conclusions. --Jameboy (talk) 19:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

If you are ranking league cups on a par with being league champions then you list is invalid. It is 100% safe to say Everton are the 4th most successful club because they have been English champions Ie the best team in the country 9 times and there is only 3 clubs who've acheived this more then Everton. RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 10:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

You are introducing a qualitative, ie subjective, element into this, when to be Neutral, we need a purely quantitative measure and that is what we currently have. We are not able to pass judgement on which Cup is better or more appropriate; that is not what Wikipedia is based on. To cover all angles we could say "this ranks Everton as 4th most successful, but on total number won, they are 6th." Or, just remove the whole thing completely. Regards. Woody (talk) 13:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree and championship wins is the only true measure. RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 13:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

You have just contradicted yourself there, saying that it is the only true measure is a subjective judgement, one that is based on your own personal opinions. Wikipedia does not base its articles on personal opinions, it bases them on verifiable information. Regards, Woody (talk) 13:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

You can argue semantics all you want. The championship, by it's very nature, is the only reliable measure of who was the best team in any one year and Everton are 4th in the list of championships won. RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 14:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

They are not semantics, they are the core policies that govern Wikipedia: please read the links in the text above, namely on neutral point of view and verifiability. Wikipedia is not a forum for you to debate the merits of competitions. Regards, Woody (talk) 16:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

By that reasoning Aston Villa fans could just as easily claim to be a more successful club than Arsenal and certainly Everton because they are one of four English clubs to have won the European Cup. It would also make Nottingham Forrest a more successful club than Arsenal! You cannot weigh the competitions won because it is always going to be subjective. It is much fairer and objective to simply judge the total number of trophies won in all competitions. Villafanuk 20:24, 4 December (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.237.107 (talk)

But that would weight league cups the same as being champions. That simply can't be right. RoyalBlueStuey (talk) 09:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I've rewritten the leading paragraph to stop this argument. The list only refers to the number of trophies won and does not confer any judgement of "success". The rankings are done by number only, if a team won the league cup 41 times they would be top. Quality judgements are irrelevant. Why all the subjective talk when the bare facts can speak for themselves? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/html2/rankings/ranking.php - this website works out where each club stands by using a weighted points system. Even so, Villa still lie in 4th place.

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