Talk:EFW N-20

IMPORTANT

This paged should be moved from "FFA N-20" to "EFW N-20" since the project was done by Eidgenössische Flugzeugwerke Emmen! It seems to be imposible to me to do this, so I request an admin or some other person with suficient right to do this. Mnaef (talk) 23:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the original editors meant Fabrique Federale d'Avions (i.e. the French name for EFW/Federal Aircraft Factory) rather than Flug & Fahrzeugwerke AG. I agree that the move would probably be better.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, however I don't know if EFW ever officially had a french name. To clarify however it would help a lot to make a clear distinction between EFW an FFA Flug & Fahrzeugwerke Altenrhein AG. Mnaef (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

EFW. Consider it done. - The Bushranger _{Return fire}^{Flank speed} 16:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Revision

I have carried out a major copy edit to correct the grammar and spelling added by an apparent non-English editor. The second infobox has been 'no-wikied' as have three extra specification sections (only one per per page is standard practice). Information can be taken from these 'specs' sections and added to their text sections if desired.

Some notes that may help the clarity of this article:

• The Harpon project whose specifications appeared is not mentioned in the text.
• The text states that Sulzer abandoned their engine development in 1947 but then says engines were built in 1948?
• It is unclear about preserved engines, I read it that there is one in the Swiss Transport Museum and another with the aircraft?

I am happy to copy edit referenced added information if needed. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:17, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• The description plate in the Flieger-Flab-Museum at Dübendorf (ther is one of the Sulzer Engine, the other is in the Swiss Museum of Transport says the engine was build 1948, this is what I knew.

As result that the 4 SM-2 engine dont had the expectet power, studies startet for the Harpon, who should have 2 Armstrong Siddeley Shapire, Mountet between the Fuselage and the wing (like for eg. by the CF-100), as far as i knew this was all only theoretical calculatet and just little windtunnel models were build, no test aircraft, no mockeup,.. Bye the way some more datast about the roket powered gilder wouldent bee bad.

one Sulzer engine is on the floor next to the N-20 aiguillone at the Flieger-Flab-Museum , the other is near the N-20 arbalete together with a spare SM-1 engine in the [Swiss Museum of Transport]]. 3 SM-1 engines are inside the N-20 aiguillon one is placed next to the Aircraft. Please see also the german page about the N-20 and pictures on wikicomons. at the moment i am a bit busy so i can't take much care about this right now. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. The Sulzer engine is little known (to me at least!!). There is no rush to add details. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 16:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Multiple specs

As per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content#Aircraft_specifications we have a long standing consensus to not have more than one set of specs per article. This is a general encyclopedia, not a specialty aircraft publication like Janes. If you really need multiple specs then split the article into individual type articles, rather than filling this one up with lots of different specs. - Ahunt (talk) 12:06, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Unlike some articles which do have dual specs because a later variant was significantly different from the first, multiple specs are of little use in this case because there was only one flying powered example. Key differences in dimensions between the development airframes and the final can be addressed in text or a simple table rather than a full specs section. Splitting into multiple articles would be a bad idea because it can all be covered in one. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:18, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the best solution in this particular case is probably to describe the differences in text or a table, but there is no need for multiple spec templates, it just completely clutters up the article, which is why we have a long-standing consensus not to do that. - Ahunt (talk) 12:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Note, since this discussion impacts a long-standing consensus I have left a notice at WikiProject Aircraft about this. - Ahunt (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd say at the moment this discussion is 100% in agreement with consensus. The only article I can think of that does have two spcs sections is Heinkel He 111 (a good article). GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:30, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Well I am hoping that the editor who keeps reinserting the multiple specs will participate so we can all either agree on the existing consensus or create a new one. - Ahunt (talk) 13:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Long standing consensus is that we only have one specification in a type article, in this instance they are not even the same type and if the other aircraft are that notable then perhaps a seperate article should be considered. MilborneOne (talk) 14:00, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I have left a message on the user's talk page - seethe diff. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:38, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

In fact 3 differend powered Aircraft were Build and 2 of them made a few fligths, one made just a few jumps on the runnway (not of tecnical reasons , it never took of because of politican reasons). And one was just a project. The Rocket powered Glider N-20.01 was the only 2 Seater (Pilot and observer) of the build N-20 Aircraft it was 1:6 of the size of the final N-20.10 Aiguillon it made a few flights towed by an traktoraircraft or took off under the power of its rocketengine. Also the N-20.10Arbalete was 1:6 to the final N-20.10 Aiguillon with differend engines and differend engine position. The projectet N-20.20 Harpon had the same size like the N-20.10 Aiguillon but only 2 engines of differend kind and again a othe engineposition. I would say the N-20 types are such differend like the Northrop YF-17 to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. I am affraid ther is not enoug information to create a own page for every N-20 typ and i think this would not made much sens. If there only stays the information about one of this aircraft who choose about what version the specification should be listet here? If there is only one specification the other specifications get lost. Putting the other specifications into the text of each version is might a solution (but the current format make it much easyer to compair the differend versions. BTW see the orginal N-20 page who is in the german wikipedia, its the same. FFA P-16 (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

As everyone commenting have described above you haven't made a good case here for multiple sets of specs in the article - those differences could be far more easily described in text and with far less clutter than four sets of specs. So far there is no consensus here to accept mutliple specs for this article. You will have to make a much stronger case than you have. Also you should have come here to discuss first rather than carrying on edit-warring again. In the meantime please revert your reinsertion of the extra specs and respect the existing consensus. - Ahunt (talk) 17:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I see another editor has reverted your re-insertion of the extra specs. I did want to point out that you should be making a more convincing case here. If you revert again you will be in violation of WP:3RR and risk being blocked for edit warring. - Ahunt (talk) 18:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

@Ahunt, That was me, I felt that another editor weighing in would help make the point that you are not alone. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

@FFA P-16, These designs are so different that to compare specifications is meaningless. Just because the German wikipedia currently includes this material does not mean that another language Wikipedia community will find it acceptable. We at en.wikipedia do things our way, the same for English and Swiss aircraft. Please be clear, four of us here say "only one specification" - a solid consensus - and that is how it will be. We can add the important details of the other specifications to the text, but many details are only theoretical and are not notable enough to include anyway - that we lose those is actually a good thing. We can discuss and agree on this talk page which specification to include here. I think that it should be the Aiguillon, which is also the titular variant (i.e. named in the article title. But we would still need to make clear whether we specify the planned design performance or the low-powered variant which hopped during its taxi trial. I think that the planned design performance would be best, and we would need to make that clear too. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)