Talk:Irish traditional music

Organisation of content of this and related pages

This article inorporates almost all of the material rating to Irish folk music, that used to be present in "Music of Ireland". The idea is to create the equivalent of the article "Folk music of England" and to allow the "Music of Ireland" a new chance to be return to the status of "good article". Ogg (talk) 10:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. There is definitely a value in having the "traditional Irish music" content separated from the more general "Irish music" (which might include "Irish pop music", "Irish classical music", etc). However, the name of this article (though equivalent to the corresponding English article) is possibly not ideal. Per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME, we should use the "most common name of a person or thing" when naming articles. Unfortunately the name of this article isn't ideal. In short, the VAST majority of people in Ireland (locals and visitors) would never refer to "folk music" in this way. It's always "Traditional music", "Trad music" or some variant. (Not "folk music"). Can we move/rename this article to Irish traditional music? Guliolopez (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings either way. The problem lies with those singer-songwriters who call themselves "folk singers". Where do they belong? They are not traditional, so they don't belong here. There are not very popular, so they can hardly justify going into pop or rock. Should "Folk music of England" be renamed "Traditional English music"? Ogg (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

"Folk music of Ireland" includes ballads and other types of song. This article is about "traditional music", which is a single form of instrumental music, mostly as an accompaniment for dancing. Note that Folk music of England has a heavy emphasis on song. So either the article needs to be expanded to include other forms of folk music, or it needs to be renamed. Scolaire (talk) 09:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

From an American point of view the line between folk and tradtional is probably more blury because I don't see a large devide here, first of all lots of good work on the article, secondly, it would probably be good to add info about ballad and song as well if the similarly titled english article addresses it. (also add the roots template to these articles) --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 04:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • The improvements are good in early 2008.. but don't go far enough. There is tons more info available, and this and associated articles are set to grow a lot... take a look here

http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S13901.htm This suggests yet more reorganisation to me. I would suggest breaking article into Folk/Ballads and Trad (instruemental) alongside other forms, like Sean Nos, Portaireacht and so on. We could also take a leaf out of Music history of Portugal ... page is better structured For one, we need to transfer some of the Folk (eg Table with top rock groups in the Folk article e.g. into some other article...). cckkab (talk) 08:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Riverdance.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Contributions by The StoneCrusher

Yes you know your stuff but this is meant to be an article highlighting the major players. It's not a laundry list of everybody you have heard of or like.

• Sean Maguire. Fair enough, but you linked into the wrong person's article.
• Jackie Roach - very minor
• Joey Flynn - minor
• Luke O'Malley - minor league
• Andy Ross Conroy (1911 - 1999). Poorly represented (if at all) on recordings so should not be mentioned here.

The following are significant but should be added to "Celtic music in the United States" rather than here:

• Randal Bays
• Joe Derrane (I wrote his article)
• Marie Reilly Ogg (talk) 07:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I need help !! i read that instruments are used in irish folk since the 18th century, but hat the bodhrán ist used since 1600. what's right now? please give me right information, i really need them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.234.251 (talk) 17:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Printed Irish folk music dates from the 18th century. Harps existed in Ireland in the 10th century, probably earlier. The music was played, it just wasn't printed. Ensemble playing probably wasn't common until the late nineteenth century. Ogg (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent addition

I would suggest that if the new section "Festivals" is to be part of this article, it should be done properly, and not simply mention an obscure German festival simply for advertizing purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hohenloh (talk • contribs) 13:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Dance?

Why is there so much stuff about dance? It only clutters up this article. The title is "Folk MUSIC of Ireland". I suggest removing all but a couple of short paragraphs on dance. Put them into their own article.Hohenloh (talk) 23:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There are several Irish dance main articles that contain all the purely dance information currently in this article. Any opinion on removing this redundant non-music information?Hohenloh (talk) 15:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sound/Music samples

The audio samples by "Dancing Willow" have absolutely nothing to do with traditional irish folk music. They are not representative, I guess that the band wanted to use Wikipedia for self-promotion. I removed them. They should be replaced with real samples like the Harmonica tune. There are quite a few available in the Archive.org audio archives. --79.223.174.3 (talk) 18:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The harmonica sound file posted adds nothing to the article. I suggest the audio samples section be removed. --Justinlwilson (talk) 13:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Northern Irish music

This article is designed to deal with music in the whole of the island, but does not have anything specific on music north of the border. There are obvious reasons why this is the case, as the flutes and drums of Orange Bands have been seen as instruments of oppression by some northern Irish Catholics. However, in a balanced article it should be possible to produce something that covers this important aspect of traditional music on the island without being partisan or offensive. I will try to put something together when I can find time, but I am flagging this up for comment from editors since it may be contentious.--SabreBD (talk) 11:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Caoineadh songs

This is very inaccurate and obviously doesn't cite any references as it's very confused and conflated.

I will rewrite it when I get a chance. Keening and popular laments are very different song forms and have totally different functions. The current section is way off the mark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seamasmac (talk • contribs) 10:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Sean Keane in Fiddle

User at 72.37.171.20, if you're reading... I moved your addition of Sean Keane from the "U.S." players paragraph to the "modern" players paragraph, as his page lists him as being born in Dublin. I don't see any reference to his being particularly represntative of a regional style - if you have a reliable source that indicates he is, then we should probably move him there. I also removed "the Master himself", since that description seems like a matter of personal opinion (not that I'm disagreeing with you, but it deviates from Wikipedia's intended neutral tone). Dereksmootz (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Musical characteristics

Nowhere in the page is there any discussion of scales, modes, or other characteristics of the music that distinguish it from other kinds of folk music or common practice. Many summaries are available (eg http://www.firepowr.com/imusic.html) and some of this information should be added to the article. It's all very well to talk about the origins and cultural context of the music, but you could read the entire article without any the wiser as to what it actually sounds like or how you would recognize it as being particularly Irish. 98.248.125.108 (talk) 18:52, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 5 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Irish traditional music -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 18:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

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(non-admin closure) Folk music of Ireland → ? – :Restarting discussion unresolved in 2008

In my experience, in Irish English, traditional music and folk music are two different things

• (a) "folk music" is contemporary folk music, whether played by Irish artists or others
• (b) "traditional music" is the kind of thing Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann does

This article seems to be about (b). Of course

1. there is plenty of overlap between (a) and (b)
2. people outside Ireland probably call (b) "Irish folk music" rather than "Irish traditional music" or "traditional Irish music"

Nevertheless I think it is worth considering whether per MOS:ENGVAR the article ought to be renamed. Possible renames:

• Irish traditional music
• traditional Irish music
• traditional music (Ireland) jnestorius^(talk) 13:16, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

jnestorius^(talk) 13:16, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Irish traditional music sounds both grammatical (per Adjective#Order) and WP:NATURAL. Also, something would need to be done with Category:Irish folk music and its subcategories – is this supposed to be the {{category main}} article for it or...? No such user (talk) 13:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Hmm, tricky. The most thorough strategy would be to divide it into Category:Irish traditional music and Category:Contemporary folk music in Ireland and deprecate Category:Irish folk music via {{Category disambiguation}}. Quicker and dirtier would be to add Category:Irish traditional music as a subcategory of Category:Irish folk music. But really there is a broader issue: Category:Traditional music has subcat Category:Ethnic music has subcat Category:Folk music; Category:Folk music is in Category:20th-century music genres; article traditional music redirects to folk music. I suspect a lot of the Category:Folk music subtree ought to be pushed up to Category:Traditional music, not restricted to Irish articles. jnestorius^(talk) 14:15, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• Might one argue that Trad is a subcategory of folk? And if so might we solve the problem by treating them as such?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
• We've had the exact same situation, issues and questions regarding folk music in general. Although I don't know if Irish had the prominent transitional event/link analogous to the US Folk Revival. They are two different but related genres which have the same name, and, importantly, which casual readers consider to be one and the same, and so the word that they would search by for both of them. We can't just take a major-word-with-a-vague-common-meaning and have it go really nowhere in Wikipedia because the commonly-accepted one meaning is technically two. My approach was one big Folk Music article somewhat split into two halves. Articles about genres are inevitably defined by and partially about the genre term rather than just some fundamental realities that exist independent of the words. In my absence, someone split it which was also fine, particularly since the article had become very large. My advice leans weakly towards keeping them combined with the current or similar title. If you do split or significantly re-retitle, keep in mind that "traditional music" and "folk music" are not quite the same thing. For example, "traditional" can include orchestral and classical. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I dont think "Irish traditional music" can include classical, its a pretty well-defined genre within the Irish folk scene.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support Irish traditional music. This is a common term that refers unambiguously to this subject.[1] "Folk music of Ireland" is a broader subject than the article actually covers, in that it could (and does) reasonably include contemporary folk and the like as played by Irish musicians, such as The Johnstons. There is of course a lot of overlap, but such overlap can be covered just as well under the title "Irish traditional music".--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Further afield

In the last paragraph of the introduction, we read, "By the 1970s Irish traditional music was again influencing music in the USA and further afield in Australia and Europe." Since Ireland is in Europe, Europe is not "further afield" than the USA. I suggest a rephrasing to, "...music in the USA as well as in Australia and mainland Europe." --88.151.31.18 (talk) 15:18, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 6 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below; the category can be discussed separately at WP:CFD if necessary. Dekimasuよ! 06:05, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

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Irish traditional music → Irish folk music – consistency with the other articles Category:Folk music by country & with Category:Irish folk music and as the new title has long been one of the akas in the premise Solidest (talk) 05:19, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). ─ The Aafī on Mobile ^(talk) 12:50, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• Clearly not uncontroversial - there was a 2017 RM which established the current name at Talk:Irish traditional music.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:33, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• It should be clarified that on Wikipedia we have an established scheme on naming traditional and folk music articles. The articles with the name "... traditional music" refer to music that combine classical and folk music, where it is close-to-impossible separate them. This mostly fair to East Asian, Indian, some Middle Eastern and Turkish-Mongolian genres. There is no such music in Europe as there is a clear division between traditional folk music and classical music. Scenes of contemporary folk music should not be assumed to be the main focus of the articles with the "(region/country) folk music" title but such scenes may be mentioned in a separate paragraph within the article as part of folk revival if necessary, see American folk music. Otherwise, contemporary folk scene articles should be named in a different way, due to the prevalence of traditional folk articles with, once again, consistent naming scheme. See also similar case of renaming: Russian folk music. I think it's important to stick to this scheme, at least until someone decides to rename all the articles to "... traditional folk music", which would finally make it unnecessary to clarify the state of things :) Solidest (talk) 14:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm all for consistency in article titles. But WP:COMMONNAME is what determines the titles of individual articles. And, in Ireland, the common term is "traditional Irish music" or "Irish traditional music". jnestorius's summary, in the 2017 RM discussion, was correct. And remains correct. And the outcome of that RM was and remains the correct one. The groups (several statutory) involved in preserving Irish traditional music all refer to it as just that. For example Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann ("Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is the largest group involved in the preservation and promotion of Irish traditional music"), Irish Traditional Music Archive ("ITMA's mission is to be the national public archive and resource centre for Irish traditional music, song and dance"), etc. I'm not going to harp on it, but an argument that reads "we call it folk music in Russia, therefore we should call it folk music in ireland" isn't how WP:COMMONNAME works... Guliolopez (talk) 10:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  The problem is that in Russian the name "Russian folk music" is not used, in fact it is called "people's music" there, while "folk" is always means contemporary folk. And the situation is just the same in all Eastern European countries. In some countries of Central Europe, the main term for traditional folk music is "popular music", somewhere it is called folkloric, somewhere ethnic, somewhere it is an untranslatable word play, etc. However, on wikipedia, we ignore regional naming conventions and adhere to the "(nation) folk music" scheme throughout, as such articles are intended to be a coverage of a regional subspecies of folk music, rather than a specific single concept for which WP:COMMONNAME should be used. I don't know if this is the right approach regarding wiki guidelines or if we should start splitting articles into overviews and genre-specific ones (like you are trying to position this article now). But such a systematic approach where a scope of articles are built to be overviews of regional folk music concept is certainly way more convenient for both the editor and the reader. And I don't see this article as an exception to the rule (unlike, for example, Traditional Japanese music, which describes exactly the inseparable mix of art + folk music). Solidest (talk) 15:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  1. on wikipedia, we ignore regional naming conventions For non-anglophone countries, the appropriate article name per WP:USEENGLISH is not a literal translation of the local name, but rather the name most used in reliable English-language references. Since Ireland is largely anglophone, the relevant guideline is MOS:TIES. If some other countries' articles have the wrong name, the solution is not to make the Irish article have a wrong name for consistency.
  2. such articles are intended to be a coverage of a regional subspecies of folk music, rather than a specific single concept for which WP:COMMONNAME should be used — intended by whom? who decides what is a "single specific concept" as opposed to a "subspecies" of some larger concept? What if it's a subspecies of two concepts with differing naming conventions? Should we move Soccer in the United States and Football in England to be consistent with Association football?
  3. genre-specific ones (like you are trying to position this article now) You seem to want not only to rename the article but also to change its content/focus to match the new name? Maybe instead accept that the current content matches the current title and neither is broken. Instead you might make Irish folk music a dab page, pointing to both Irish traditional music and Music of Ireland#Folk, and add some info at the latter anchor about whatever you think is "missing" from the Irish traditional music article
  4. Your comment at Talk:Russian folk music is Therefore Irish, Danish, Gaelic, Kosovo, "Galicia, Cantabria and Asturias" should also be renamed to folk (articles themselves refer to folk literally everywhere, without describing anything about the art music), but this is getting ahead of time though. You should do a multi-move nomination for all articles instead of doing them one at a time. It would attract more contributors and avoid rehashing the same arguments multiple times (or indeed using inconsistent arguments in different cases).

  jnestorius^(talk) 20:49, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  I mostly agree with you. Except of few things:

  1. "intended by whom? who decides what is a "single specific concept" as opposed to a "subspecies" of some larger concept?" Decided by logical sense. When you are describing general concept, you will also describe its subspecies. Any traditional folk music is still traditional folk music per listed characteristics and definitions here: folk music#characteristics. And it's a pretty solid line that's hard to go wrong with. Various countries/nations can have multiple folk styles, the older traditional ones, or newer contemporary folk ones. While traditional music is way more vague as a concept. And is in line with your football analogy. Classical and religious music can also be called traditional music because both follow established musical traditions. And the content of this article will have a problem with that logic. But in my opinion, labeling the article as folk only makes it more obvious that the content of the article would be consistent with folk music definitions.
  2. "accept that the current content matches title". Not really. Irish traditional music has 4 paragraphs under "Revivals of traditional Irish music", which just describes contemporary folk scene. There's no such thing as "contemporary traditional music". Irish folk music = Irish traditional music + Irish contemporary folk scene. Such scheme looks way more fitting than placing it under Irish traditional music, in my opinion. But this is just a matter of reworking the article. These paragraphs should probably be in the new article called "Irish folk music" just like you said.

  But that's just my original logic, which as you correctly point out does not coincide with the wiki guidelines you listed. So I think it can be left as it is until the further article rework. Solidest (talk) 21:50, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose and suggest instead refactoring Category:Irish traditional music out of Category:Irish folk music. Four of the five article title criteria are Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, and Consistency; changing from the current to the proposed title improves Consistency but loses the other three. jnestorius^(talk) 20:49, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.