Talk:Association football/Archive 4

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Football Soccer name

I believe the best solution would be to have wikipedia check the origin of the IP. If it's a US (and other countries that use soccer) IP, change title to soccer. If it's England, Australia, etc. make the title football. I don't know if the MediaWiki software is capable of something like this. My guess is probably not as this is such a specific problem.

I'm from the US but personally, I'd call it football, if there were no alternative. Though we as Americans may think that the only English-speaking country's opinion which matters is the US, it doesnt change the fact that if you use hte term football elsewhere in the world, you're likely to get a response pertaining to soccer not American football.

However, the best way would be just to have a main redirection page or just automatically direct people to the disambiguation page. Like have two links maybe one with a picture of an american football (the ball) next to it and another with a soccer ball next to it.

Actually I've jsut found out that rugby is soemtimes called football

"Australians fall into three camps when it comes to naming the two codes of rugby: in New South Wales and Queensland, people usually refer to rugby union simply as "rugby" and to rugby league simply as "football"."

The main article page calls it "Football (soccer)". This is not hard to understand, and there's no need to complicate it. There's even a picture of a player right on the front of the article. (I am a Canadian, we use soccer. Makes no difference, everyone understands the use of the word "football") -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 03:54, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Originally posted by User:Norbutt2001:

Basically, the only countries which use the nickname Soccer are the US and Canada. The game is most popular in Europe and South America and it is always refered to in these areas as Football not Soccer. According to The Football Association & FIFA, the games creator and govening body, its offical name is Association Football, therefore the best name for this article is Football (Association) not Football (Soccer). Soccer would only be relevent to peoples living in North America where lets be frank its not as popular or as well developed as in the rest of the world.

It's known as soccer in Australia, New Zealand and possibly South Africa (not sure about that one, though) too. Not to suggest that the page should be called soccer, but it's a more widespread name for the game than you think. StuartH 02:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the game is known by different names in different places (and even different names in the one place, eg South Africa). The article reflects this reality without letting the issue take up an inordinant amount of space; the whole naming "issue" has its own article devoted to it to allow the Football (soccer) article to cover the important issues regarding the game. Cheers, --Daveb 02:43, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Portal

A wikiportal (Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Association football) has been started by Johan Elisson. -- Phoenix2 21:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Restarts and Fouls & Misconduct

I have added a section on fouls and misconduct, as there wasn't any information on them in the article. Due to the size of the topic I have only given brief descriptions and a couple of erxamples; however, considering the importance of the topic it probably warrants a spin-off article to give details.

I have also updated/created articles for each of the restarts, except free kicks, and have tried to keep a standard format for them. If someone would like to review them that would be good. I will probably try to tackle the rewrite of Free kick in the near future, unless someone else is keen :-)

Cheers, --Daveb 06:31, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hand ball and slide tackles

I reverted a change which stated that hand ball meant using a part of the arm from the tip of the finger to the elbow. Though FIFA does not actually define hand ball it has always been applied when any part of the arm was used and even when the shoulder is used in many cases (especially if the arms are raised or the player aggressively moves his shoulder to the ball) Slide tackling is simply one kind of tackle, it is quite possible to tackle a player without sliding, in fact in a lot of amateur tournaments slide tackling is forbidden. Bob Palin 23:07, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Oldest football club

What's the oldest football club in the world?

Sheffield F.C.. SpiceMan 21:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Sheffield is the oldest to be playing association football/soccer; see the new oldest football club article. Grant65 (Talk) 14:29, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Ballsack?

What on Earth is 'ballsack'? Wiktionary doesn't know it and the only thing Wikipedia seems to be able to come up with is 'scrotum'. I doubt if that is meant :) . DirkvdM 07:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It was almost certainly vandalism; I removed it. Cheers, --Daveb 14:48, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Background on the names of the game section

Norbutt2001,

Some background regarding the Names of the game section of the Football (soccer) article.

Until a few months ago a large portion of the article was taken up by unwieldy information regarding the names of football; everyone wanted to add their little take on what is the "best" or "correct" name, and we even ended up with a long list of different names for the sport in different parts of the world. The core issues that should be covered by the main article on the sport were lost amongst a fairly trivial issue.

In response, this information was initially to its own section (a Names of the game section), and then the issue was spun-off to its own dedicated page: Football (soccer) names. A similar issue arose on the Football article, and they similar responded by spinning off Football (word).

For Football (soccer), there has been a focussed attempt to keep the whole naming issue as small as possible in the core article and to keep discussions regarding the name in its own article, so that the main article can focus on the major issues surrounding the sport.

The issue of the title for the article has already been discussed at length, as you will see by reading this discussion page.

--Daveb 06:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

50-1

Any of you heard about the Belgian womens team that lost 50-1 on Saturday? news story. Now that's a beating. – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 11:19, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

#1

Can somebody point me to the "extensive" discussion that concluded that football (soccer) is NOT the most popular sport in the world? (not the "most played", but the "most popular", two different things)

I'd like to participate.

--Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 15:20, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

About the picture

This is clearly NOT a shot illustrated by the picture. The player (#10) is still outside the box and so close to the bottom line. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Raybooboo (talk • contribs) 25 Sept 2005.

It's difficult to tell what's happening from a static picture — you should perhaps message the person who uploaded the picture to ask them what happened. Cheers, --Daveb 02:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC).

Two articles of the same topic?

Why is there another article named Football? I think the other one should be change to Football (history) or something.

P.S.

Don't take this post TO serioulsy as I have not followed the multiple discusions int he subjet. I'm just looking to satisfy my curiosity.Nnfolz 18:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Tie-breaking

I have heard that in the past a coin was flipped to decide a tie-break instead of going into extra time or having a penalty-kick shootout. Is it true? Also, what exactly happens if the penalty-kick shootout results in a draw? It is unclear in the article. Thanks Donama 01:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. The most important match to be decided by a coin toss was in a semi-final of the European championships in 1968, Italy beat the Soviet Union to proceed through to the final which they went on to win 1968_European_Football_Championship#Semi-finals. As for penalty shootouts, if there is a tie after the five attempts by both teams it goes to sudden death. i.e. it continues until one side misses and the other scores. Jooler 02:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Jooler is correct regarding penalty shootouts. As there is already an article devoted to the details of a shootout there is no need to duplicate that info here. Cheers, --Daveb 08:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

---

edited Football is played at a professional level all over the world, and millions of people regularly go to a football stadium to follow their favourite team, whilst millions more avidly watch the game on television. to...

Football is played at a professional level all over the world, and millions of people regularly go to football stadiums to follow their favourite team, whilst millions more avidly watch the game on television. Whilst conjuring up images of a stadium of mammoth proportions capable of accomodating all the world's football fans. Matt. S. 29 December

fair enough stadia will do as well. Though both (stadia, and stadiums) are legitimate plurals. So just use whatever everyone prefers. Not that it's a big thing. Matt. S.

Page move vote in progress

There is currently a vote on to move Football World Cup to FIFA World Cup. see talk:Football World Cup Jooler 11:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Article name

This matter will have been undoubtedly debated and resolved in the past and I have no intention of starting a discussion it. I'm just curious to know: why is the article at "football (soccer)", when "association football" is the official name (and of course it must be distinguished from other forms of football)? (In FIFA, which is from the French abbreviation, the "association" at the end is an adjective of "football", I think.) Britannica uses "Association football", for example, not that we should be following it. "Soccer" is a (minority-used) synonym for "association football", not a subject-field or clarifying descriptor of the word "football".

Anyway, don't take this as an attempt to request to move the page (even though it sounds like one), I'm just curious. Neonumbers 11:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Neonumbers,

You are correct in your assumption that this has been debated before (at length!). I think there were two major issues with association football (my preferred page title):

1) It is debatable whether or not it is the "official" name of the sport: FIFA and IOC both just use football. I understand the association at the end of the French name refers to the associations that form FIFA rather than being adjectival, i.e. rough translation to "Federation of International Football Associations" rather than "Federation of Association Football". Correct me if I am incorrect.

2) Wikipedia has a policy of generally naming pages according to common name. I think it is questionable whether the current page title achieves this, but it seems to work well enough.

Cheers, --Daveb 11:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is it debatable ? The name of the sport is Association Football. Nothing else. 199.166.15.246 11:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for the reply. Makes more sense now. Cheers, Neonumbers 05:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. See the discussion on the FIFA talk page : Can anyone explain why the word "Association" in the federation's name is in singular form? -- Because "association football" is the name of the sport. It doesnt mean International Federation of (lots of) Football Associations. Jameswilson 6 December 2005; Yup. If it was rendered in English it would be International Federation of Association Football. In the French language, the adjective comes after the noun, as in "Football association" Erath 7 December 2005.; --68.96.241.18 14:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

popularity

i havent seen anything on the popularity of soccer. It is the most played sport in the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.49.208.141 (talk • contribs) 28 January 2006.

It actually says in the main article - it is therefore often claimed to be the most popular sport in the world.

I know wikipedia is meant to take a npov, but it sometimes goes too far. Football just is the most popular sport in the world. Kellster71 00:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The issue is one of verifiability. Unless someone can cite a reference to prove the claim then we can't really make it. --Daveb 08:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It is pretty clear (as someone who is not a Football supporter and does not play) that Football is also the only really global sport in the world. I have to admit that the football world cup is THE World Cup and it is only in the USA that anyone has not noticed. Wikipedia National pastime for example lists it as the most popular sport in far more countries than any other. --BozMotalk 13:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually people in the US do know about it, especially the Hispanics and other foriegners. Tennis Dynamite 02:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are the FIFA numbers for the '98 World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/p/h/fwc.html Seeing as the numbers of people who play it are already in the article, unless someone can prove that there is a sport watched and played by more people than football, I'm editing the article to get rid of the weasel words. Bratici 21:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"Actually people in the US do know about it, especially the Hispanics and other foriegners." Are you suggesting that hispanics are foreigners? Apart from native Americans I thought all people in the USA are "foreigners"

Why does it say "one of the most popular sports in the world". It is, without ANY doubt the most popular in the world. FIFA statistics show that there are 650.000 teams with 23 million players worldwide (officially registered to FIFA, not counting the hobby players and non-official teams, wich surely sum up to a few hundred millions)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move vote closed as Strong Oppose. See also previous discussions in the archives, eg here. Rd232 ^talk 21:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed move

football (soccer) to soccer. Soccer is a simpler title. Facts&moreFacts 21:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Under no circumstances - Jooler 21:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
• Under no circumstances Some countries call it football and never ever soccer. Others call it soccer and never ever football. other countries (the US, Ireland, etc call their own local sports football. This name was chosen because it uses all forms used worldwide and was agreed after a detailed debate. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 21:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This must be a joke. You didn't even bother to read the section above this one. This has been discussed and people have found a consensus. --Maitch 21:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not discussed above. Facts&moreFacts 21:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

To quote the section above. "You are correct in your assumption that this has been debated before (at length!)." --Maitch 21:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you go and read the archives listed at the top of the page. You will soon find the discussions... -- Arwel (talk) 01:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose — Americentrism is the only excuse for renaming, and it's not a good one.— Bill W. (Talk) (Contrib)  –  February 14, 2006, 22:09 (UTC)
• Support "Soccer" is already in the title to start with, so it shouldn't cause any harm for that to be the full title. The title Football (soccer) is more difficult to type. 64.192.107.242 22:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
  • You're free to link to or write soccer if you want to. You end up here anyway. Sam Vimes 08:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Olessi 22:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
• Under no circumstances Vanky 08:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Excessively debated before. Sam Vimes 08:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, obviously, and send the move request to BJAODN. — sjorford (talk) 10:25, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose,this issue was resolved long ago Bob Palin 15:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: All the reasons have already been stated, and if you do call it soccer, how do you explain FC, FA or FIFA? Internationally committed and promulgated spelling mistakes? MSJapan 22:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: Many don't even know what the word "soccer" stands for. "Football" should be the name. Uapatriot 00:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oh God, not again! Under no circumstances. This has been thrashed out in minute detail many times before. Given that the proposer of the move apparently created the account and made his first edit less than 24 hours before kicking this off, I have a strong feeling that we have been trolled. -- Arwel (talk) 01:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Totally Oppose. If anything this article should be renames "football" Tancred 06:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. I guess our newbie friend Facts&moreFacts haven't seen the previous discussions regarding this subject. Mariano(t/c) 13:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose — and suggest addition of banner at the top of the page saying this has been tried before and has failed. — Gareth Hughes 17:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose Arnemann 21:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Additional comments

• Strongly Oppose - FOOTBALL is a competitive sport invented in England and is much more popular in England and in other countries where it is also called football. Try for Association Football. I'll put a support vote in for that. Football (Soccer) makes no sense.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.109.186.127 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC).

Golden/silver goals

The text now states that the experiments were motivated because the penalty shootout was undesireable.

Wasn't a part of the motivation that the 2x15 minutes of extra time were often drawn out by defensive play if a team had great confidence in their keeper/penalty takers for the penalty shootout? The instant reward of a golden goal was then seen as an incitement for teams to be more aggressive, to go for the decisive goal (with the back-firing result that teams got even more scared of loosing, and more defensive). Poulsen 10:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

3 points and backpasses

I am curious as to when the rules giving three (and not two) points for a win was introduced - around 1992/1993 iirc, but should this be in the rules of the game? Also the penalizing of a goalkeeper picking up a backpass from his own defender with his hands was added in the last 10-15 years as well, should this be included? I'm mainly asking because I'm curious as to when those rule changes occured and haven't seen anything mentioned about it on wiki. Poulsen 10:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that the backpass rule was introduced in the 1994 World Cup, but I'm not totally sure. It may have been the previous season. Back-pass rule is a substub. The introduction of three points for a win varied by country; England introduced it in 1981-82. The number of points for a win will be in the rules for a particular competition rather than the laws of the game. I don't think it should be mentioned in this introductory article, in fact I think the rules section goes too in-depth, and should have some content moved to Rules of football (soccer). At the moment we have the section here, Laws of the Game, and individual articles such as Direct free kick and Throw-in. We should have one article bringing together all the rules IMO. Oldelpaso 19:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just looked it up: the backpass rule was introduced in 1992 [1]. Oldelpaso 19:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Oldelpaso,

By the time we brought all the Laws-related (NB Laws, not Rules) articles together we might as well just point to the FIFA website :-)

I agree much of the text on the Laws in the main article could be migrated to the Laws of the Game article to streamline the main article, but I would keep the daughter pages on restarts. --Daveb 09:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be the only place on this page which discusses the choice of "laws" over "rules". Can anybody include a reference or explanation of why such a choice? In my experience, this is not standard usage; a "law" is either natural or legal, but social systems such as games have "rules". --Homunq 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also a separate article - see Three points for a win. 195.92.70.130 10:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The physical contact between players

I've reinserted a shorter phrase on fouls into the "Nature of the game" section. The previous wording was:

The physical contact between players is restricted: holding, tripping, kicking or excessively pushing opponents is not allowed. Such actions (along with handling the ball) are called fouls and are punishable by a free kick (or a penalty kick if commited in the vicinity of the offender's goal; see below for details).

I agree that this information is found elsewhere, but I thought it's important to include this section in the overview (to emphasize difference from rugby, for example). Also, what is incorrect here? Conscious 18:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

In the "Nature of the game" section it seems very odd to have a comment that regaining control of the ball can be done by "tackling the opponent who controls the ball"--I've never seen sanctioned tackling in soccer!

tackling is what it is called when one player attempts to take the ball from another! You are thinking of the American usage of the word which is different Bob Palin 01:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Tackling is when a player slides towards another player attempting to steal the ball from the other player. Tackling a player from behind is considered a severe foul and can result in a Yellow or a Red Card Thizz 19:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

No, that's sliding tackle. Conscious 04:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Not only that but sliding tackles are perfectly legal under FIFA rules, tackles from behind of any kind are not legal though this seems to be open to wide interpretation. Bob Palin 05:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, that's what i ment, a slide tackle. Should have been more specific Thizz 21:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

"Sliding ..." not "slide ..." Jooler 22:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In fact, the article is named slide tackle. :) Conscious 06:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well then the article is misnamed - as the external link to the BBC site suggests. Jooler 21:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following six offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
• jumps at an opponent
• charges an opponent
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
• pushes an opponent
A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following four offences:
• tackles an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
-- Alias Flood 23:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Name again

There are long discussions about whether this page should be called "Soccer" or "Association Football" or "Football (soccer)". Oddly enough I find no proposal to just put it at "Football" (which would have to be moved then to "Football (disambiguation)" or "Football games").

• Football is the most common name in the English speaking world (see [2])
• It definitely is the most common name in the rest of the world, when it uses English as language of communication.
• Football in other languages is almost invariably a literal translation or (like in French) just "Football" pronounced with an accent.

I see no reason why football should not be this article. Piet 20:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be at Assosiation football that being its official name. It would be nice to have it at football with it being the most common form of football but that isn't going to happen. We really shouldn't resort to the slang term of 'soccer' though.--Josquius 13:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Official name has nothing to do with it?! Common name is what matters. Anyway the current situation is probably the best we can hope for. Piet 13:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The football article is ruled by a bunch of Australian Rules Football fanatics. You'll never get it changed. Also, I think you'll find that soccer is a more commonly recognised term for this sport. Even countries that commonly refer to it as football understand that the sport is also called soccer. I also disagree with your assertion that it's the 'common' name that matters. Common names are grounds for disambiguation not changing the title of an article. NSWelshman 14:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's amazing how many times this debate has to take place, although I can understand the confusion among people who have a first language other than English. A few points:

• 1. In the English language, "the word football" has never automatically implied the game which this article is about (although some people will try to claim that it has); "football", used alone, has always been used for many different games, in different English-speaking countries, including the UK.
• 2. While the word "soccer" originated in England as slang, it is now the official name of the game in the several countries, including the USA, Canada, New Zealand and (until recently) Australia. Soccer is also the common name in those countries.
• 3. (1) and (2) being the case, football (soccer) needs to be disambiguated from other forms of Football. That is why this article should remain here. Grant65 | Talk 23:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

1: Yes it does. Over 100 years ago it may have meant different games and in certain small towns or public schools it may still but to the general populace of the UK if you say footballyou mean football. 2: The official name of the game is assosiation football. The generally accepted way of doing things on wikipedia is to use the spelling/wording common in the nation the game is about. Football being British assosiation football is far more appropriate. Also you must consider the USA is not the world, sure its a big country but the rest of the world calls the game assosiation football- just go look at the Spanish version of this article. If we're going purely off who is biggest just go look down at all 1 billion of those football loving people down in South America. 3: We're not really seriously suggesting this be at football. It should be at Assosiation football--Josquius 14:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think either Football (Soccer) or Association Football is fine. However, as it is already at Football (Soccer) why change? I do believe Football should be a disambiguation - think of all the Americans, Australians and others who use it to mean an entirely different sport than Association Football. Xtra 14:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• As we already have an article at football, this can't be moved there. 64.193.70.223 19:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Josquius, you can't disregard the hundred of millions of people who speak varieties of English other than British English, so it is true to say that "football" has never automatically meant Association football, to a majority of English speakers. Especially since that usage ("football = soccer") wasn't even established by the time the English-speaking population outside the UK outnumbered the English-speaking population within the UK, which must have occurred at least 150 years ago, if not further back.

If it wasn't for South Asian English, which shares the British usage of the word "football", it would probably be true that "soccer" was the more common name among native speakers of English. For example, see this simple Google search for "football": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=football&btnG=Google+Search . I think the article should stay at "football (soccer)". Grant65 | Talk 07:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

i looked thru the archives and there is little support for it to be at Association Football. Soccer is obviously a no-no, looking at the above "poll". If Football is not occupied, it makes sense to move Football (soccer) there as it seems to me that (soccer) is tagged to the article name to distinguish it from the Football article rather than to assert the usage of the word soccer. The question now is do Football (soccer) deserve the main space at Football any more than the current article at Football deserve it? --Dodo bird 09:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: there is no basis to the claim that "football" has ever automatically and unambiguously meant soccer/Association football to most native English speakers. Therefore it has no claim to the football page ahead of any other code of football. Grant65 | Talk 04:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Although as an Englishman in my ideal world this article would be at either football (*insert old arguments about popularity, being the game that mostly uses the foot etc* :p) or association football (even FIFA uses this as part of its name), it's obvious that any move to just plain football would result in the biggest edit war known to mankind -- everyone knows and loves their own game as simply 'football'; is it really worth the divisive, endless reverts and arguments, when either the current name, or association football should be, at the very least, tolerable to all parties....and a lot better then 'soccer!' --iamajpeg 19:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move on both accounts. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 07:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)